"Claus Christiansen" skrev
news:469a0c61$0$2657$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk
[ ... ]
> > "Jesus-loves-you" skrev
> -- snip en masse --
> > Vi kommer unægteligt IKKE udenom, at disse søkort er en *gåde*´
>
> Jo, Peri Reis 'gåden' er forlængst blevet tilbagevist:
>
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/PiriRies.HTM.
Dét lyder interessant ...
På denne web-adresse står der følgende:
=== citat start ===
The Piri Reis Map
Steven Dutch, Natural and Applied Sciences, University of Wisconsin - Green
Bay
First-time Visitors: Please visit Site Map and Disclaimer. Use "Back" to
return here.
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A Note to Visitors
I will respond to questions and comments as time permits, but if you want to
take issue with any position expressed here, you first have to answer this
question:
What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs wrong?
I simply will not reply to challenges that do not address this question.
Refutability is one of the classic determinants of whether a theory can be
called scientific. Moreover, I have found it to be a great general-purpose
cut-through-the-crap question to determine whether somebody is interested in
serious intellectual inquiry or just playing mind games. Note, by the way,
that I am assuming the burden of proof here - all you have to do is commit
to a criterion for testing. It's easy to criticize science for being
"closed-minded". Are you open-minded enough to consider whether your ideas
might be wrong?
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The Map
The Piri Reis Map, shown below, is the oldest surviving map to show the
Americas. It is not European, surprisingly, but Turkish. It bears a date of
919 in the Moslem calendar, corresponding to 1513 in the Western Calendar.
It is in the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul, a fabulous museum and the locale
for a truly awful movie in the late 1960's. (I've been there - the real
place bears no resemblance to the place in the movie.) The map was lost for
a long time and only rediscovered in the 20th century.
Apart from its great historic interest, the map has been alleged to contain
details no European could have known in the 1500's, and therefore proves the
existence of ancient technological civilizations, visits by
extraterrestrials, or both.
The map is a portolan chart, a common form at this time. Instead of latitude
and longitude grids, compass roses were placed at key points with azimuths
radiating from them. That said, the east-west lines through the small rose
off South America in the center of the map are a very good approximation to
the Equator, both there and with respect to Africa. The small one at the
very top of the map is a very good estimate of 45 north where the east-west
azimuth hits the coast of France. The two big compass roses in mid-Atlantic
are harder to place. They might locate the tropic lines (23-1/2 north and
south) or they could represent 22-1/2 latitude (one-fourth of the way from
equator to pole). Considering they are a bit closer to 45 degrees than the
equator, the tropic lines are the best bet.
Erich von Daniken in Chariots of the Gods? claimed that the map closely
resembled an azimuthal projection centered on Cairo.
At left is a real azimuthal projection centered on Cairo. This
projection does tilt the Greater Antilles vertical and bring them up even
with northern Europe. But it fails to bring South America below the bulge of
Africa. And the equator, which is quite precise on the Piri Reis map, is
curved.
The straight parallels of latitude show that the map cannot be azimuthal. It
has to be a cylindrical projection, probably cylindrical equidistant if
anything. A cylindrical equidistant projection has equally spaced parallels
of latitude. It was rarely used in pre-computer times (there are better
projections that are just as easy to construct) but has become a lot more
common recently because it is the easiest projection to plot on a computer.
(You just plot latitude and longitude directly without any mathematical
alterations.)
At left is a direct comparison between the Piri Reis Map and the
supposedly identical azimuthal equidistant projection. The scale is chosen
to find the best fit with the western bulge of Africa. Nothing matches.
Spain on the azimuthal equidistant map is well to the right of western
Africa, not directly above.
So clearly the claim that the Piri Reis Map matches a map centered on
the Middle East is total garbage. At left is an azimuthal equidistant map
centered on 0, 0. The fit of Africa and Spain is far better and the fit with
Brazil is surprisingly good. Features on the South American coast down to
southern Brazil can be identified with certainty. Beyond that, though, the
map is fantasy. It doesn't match either South America or Antarctica very
well.
So, apart from claiming vague similarities between the Piri Reis map
and Antarctica, what positive, specific evidence do you have that the map
shows Antarctica?
The Marginal Notes
The marginal writings on the map are very revealing. Translations are in The
Oldest Map of America, by Professor Dr. Afet Inan. Ankara, 1954, pp. 28-34
and available at a number of Web sites. Until 1922 the Turkish language was
written with Arabic letters, but the language on the map is Turkish, not
Arabic.
Most important is that references to maps of Asia, plus some fragmentary
lines south of Africa, indicate that this was originally a world map which
was torn in half along the eastern edge. Wouldn't it be marvelous to see the
other half?
Most of the bizarre claims made for the Piri Reis Map utterly ignore the
marginal notes, which pretty conclusively show the map is entirely 16th
century terrestrial in origin.
Cartography of the Piri Reis Map
Below is a tracing of the coastlines on the map. Western Europe and Africa
are easily recognizable, the Azores, Canary Islands and Cape Verde Islands
are fairly accurate both as to location and the number and arrangements of
individual islands. Eastern South America is also easily recognizable, but
there are a lot of things not so easily recognized. The map, by the way, is
very clear on the existence of mountains in the interior of South America
(in brown on the tracing).
Europe
The coastline of France and Iberia is well-drawn. There are four major
rivers shown in Iberia, from north to south the Atlantic rivers are the
Tagus and Guadalquivir, and the east-flowing rivers are the Ebro (north) and
an unknown river in the south (there are several minor rivers it could be).
The rivers are very inaccurately located. The Tagus enters the Atlantic at
Lisbon as shown, but does not have a hook in its upper reaches. The Duoro,
to the north, does, but it's not shown. It looks very much as if the
draftsman confused the two rivers.
By the way, the Spanish syllable guad- that begins so many place names comes
from Arabic wadi, valley. Wadi-al-yahara, valley of the flowing water,
became Guadalajara, for example.
Africa
The western bulge of Africa is pretty well drawn and the offshore islands
are as well (though too large relative to everything else).
There are a couple of small rivers in Morocco that could correspond to the
northernmost river. The river emptying at the center of the bulge is the
Senegal and the next one south is the Gambia, followed to the south by the
Guinea. The two rivers do not join but do approach closely. The
south-flowing river is probably the Sassandra in the Ivory Coast.
The welter of lakes and rivers inland do not exist as shown but may reflect
some garbled knowledge of the Niger headwaters and its inland delta.
Some people have claimed the map shows the Sahara as it was during the
Pleistocene, when it had huge inland lakes. There are several reasons to
doubt this:
a.. If the rivers of Iberia, which was occupied by Moslems for 700 years,
are inaccurately shown, why should we think the map of Africa is any more
accurate?
b.. No amount of flooding the basins of the Sahara could make the Niger
top its drainage divide and flow to the Atlantic. It's just too high. In
fact, it's the highest land for a thousand miles. You could flood the Sahara
enough to put Khartoum on the Atlantic and still leave the Niger drainage
divide above water.
c.. Sailors navigating the desert coast of west Africa would be interested
in where to find fresh water now, not where it was during the Pleistocene.
North America
North America is frankly a mess on this map. The only voyages to North
America by 1513 were voyages to Newfoundland beginning with John Cabot in
1498, and some Spanish sightings of the southeast coast of the U.S. It was
only in 1513 that Balboa reached the Pacific and Ponce de Leon discovered
people who can't punch ballots correctly in Miami Beach.
The marginal notes refer to some of the islands and coasts north of South
America as "Antilia," clearly referring to the Antilles. The lack of good
detail is puzzling since there must have been much better maps of the
Caribbean by this time. If it's a real place at all - "Antilia" was a
legendary island of the times. The big triangular island in the far
northwest could be Newfoundland. It's close to the right latitude and even
pretty much the right shape. Given that the most detailed knowledge of North
America was in the north at this time, the big island off the coast is much
more likely to be Nova Scotia than one of the Antilles. Supporting this is
the fact that a nearby note refers to St. Brendan, an Irish monk who
according to tradition sailed far into the North Atlantic in the sixth
century. He might conceivably have reached Newfoundland or Nova Scotia but
is pretty unlikely to have reached the Antilles.
The mess of North America is important. It's ridiculous to claim, as many
people do, that there are ancient or extraterrestrial secrets lurking in
this map when something as big as North America is so crudely drawn.
Robert Bywater and Jean-Pierre Lacroix published a very interesting
hypothesis in Journal of Spatial Science vol 49 (1); 13-23 (2004) They
suggest that the islands off North America might actually be Asia. The dream
that the Americas might somehow be joined to Asia died hard, and remember,
this map predates Magellan by a decade so nobody really knew how wide the
Pacific was. As late as 1634, Jean Nicolet sailed into Green Bay expecting
to meet the Chinese. It's worth considering.
Secrets in the map?
It's the other stuff that fascinates people. Among other claims:
a.. The map shows the earth as seen from space
b.. The map shows the subglacial topography of Greenland
c.. The map shows the subglacial topography of Antarctica
d.. The map is aligned with the earth's energy grid (whatever that means)
Here's a map that does show the earth from space as seen from a point
that roughly matches the Piri Reis Map (20N, 30W). We can see that any
similarity between this map and the Piri Reis Map, apart from what
terrestrial navigators knew in the early 1500's, is imaginary.
This projection is called an orthographic projection. Draftsmen of the
1500's would have been perfectly capable of drawing such a map given the
geographic coordinates. You do not need to go into space to do it. For one
thing, by this time there were globes to use as models.
At left is the same map with the Piri Reis map superimposed on it. The
conclusions don't change: Europe and Africa, pretty good. South America,
fair. In fact the crudeness of the cartography of the Caribbean coast is
more obvious here. Similarity to North America: vague at best. Similarity to
Antarctica: imaginary.
The fit is actually not as good as the fit with the azimuthal
equidistant map shown above.
Below is the Piri Reis Map with modern maps superimposed. We can see that
Europe and Africa are pretty good but with lots of inaccuracy in detail.
Promontories and bays are exaggerated, a natural enough tendency in a day
when navigating by landmark was a matter of life and death. The Azores,
Canary Islands and Cape Verde Islands are accurately located but again,
exaggerated in size. Also note a hint of cartographic breakdown where the
coast of Africa meets the right edge of the map.
Brazil is pretty recognizable, but South America is too big compared to
Africa and Europe, the Atlantic is way too narrow, and South America is
compressed east-to-west. Also, what are the big islands offshore? North
America is essentially imaginary.
Now one thing we can count on navigators of the 1500's being able to measure
accurately is latitude. On the east side we can clearly see the tip of
France, so the top of the map represents about 50 degrees north latitude. So
right away we can forget about this map showing Greenland, subglacial or
not. The coast of subglacial Greenland, by the way, won't look very
different from the present coast, for the simple reason that most of the
Greenland coast is rock, not ice. There's nothing on the map that even
vaguely resembles Greenland.
The Piri Reis Map does not use any systematic projection, although as noted
above it's close to a cylindrical equidistant. It tries to get features
accurate to shape and relative location, and it tries to plot accurate
latitudes, but there is no reasonable transformation of the present earth
that will yield the Piri Reis Map. (You can, of course, come up with a
mathematical transformation that will transform any map into any other map,
but any transformation of the real world into the Piri Reis Map would be so
convoluted and ad hoc that it would prove nothing.)
South America
The scale of South America above was chosen to give a good fit in latitude
from the north coast to the tip of Brazil, presumably the best-mapped part
at the time the map was drawn. We can see that the match between the modern
map and the Piri Reis Map is pretty good for some distance south of that,
both in scale and in geographic detail.
That long stretch of coast on the bottom of the map has been claimed to be
Antarctica, a place not known to humans until the 19th century. So let's
compare a modern map of South America (left, below) with the Piri Reis Map
(right).
Start with the obvious. The tip of Brazil is easy to place (A-a). To the
west (b) we have a large river flowing into a broad recess. This can only be
the Amazon (B). The big island to the northeast on the Piri Reis Map may be
Marajo Island, the big island at the mouth of the Amazon. Whatever, the fact
that there is no island in mid-Atlantic as shown doesn't bode well for the
idea that this map drew on ancient advanced knowledge.
To the south, the sharp recess in the coast of Brazil (C-c) is easy to see
on both maps. At d we have a large river with a big delta flowing out of a
convex coastline, and a big island offshore (e). It's a nearly perfect match
for the Orinoco (D) and the island is Trinidad (E). One of the two rivers at
g is almost certainly the Magdalena (G) but it's not clear what the other
one is. Possibly the Magdalena is the river to the east and the Darien is
the river to the west. The coastal bend north of Panama is fairly clear
(F-f) but everything north of that bears almost no resemblance to any modern
maps.
Moving south, it's tempting to identify the big river at h with the Rio de
la Plata (P), except the Rio de la Plata is too far south and empties into a
large bay, not on a bulge in the coast. The Piri Reis Map actually matches
the real coastal bulge at H far better, except there's no river there. But
there is a city called Rio de Janeiro, or "River of January" because the
discoverer mistook the complex bays there for the mouth of a large river. In
fact, the real coastline there looks rather like the Piri Reis coastline, if
you squint a bit. It certainly looks more like it than anything on the map
looks like Greenland! If we buy this, the smooth concave indentation to the
south (I-i) falls into place.
The southern compass rose on the map would place the tropic of Capricorn on
the small coastal bump halfway between c and h, and that would favor the big
river being the Rio de la Plata. So we have to conclude that either the
latitudes or the coastline (or both) are inaccurate south of c. The coastal
fit seems too good to discard, and the marginal notes in this area explain
how Piri Reis synthesized his map from a number of sources, so it's not hard
to see how latitude might have suffered a bit in the process. Remember, he
didn't have the raw latitude observations to go on.
Thereafter, the Piri Reis Map drifts into the Twilight Zone. It shows South
America swinging far to the east. Given that the map so far has done fairly
well in latitude, we can be sure the coastline is not Antarctica. Also, if
the map draws on ancient knowledge to show things no 16th century explorer
would have known, why is the coastline continuous? So why isn't there open
water between South America and "Antarctica?" You can't seize on an
accidental resemblance to a couple of bumps on the coast of Antarctica and
blithely ignore the failure to show the Drake Passage!
Most damning of all to the Antarctica interpretation is that the marginal
notes refer to the coast in this region being discovered by Portuguese ships
blown off course. One note refers to the land being "very hot," which
probably rules out Antarctica. The Piri Reis Map itself explicitly says the
information in this area came from European sources. Atlanteans and
extraterrestrials need not apply. We have isolated sightings of coast made
by ships far off course and unsure of their location. Small wonder the map
is wildly inaccurate.
Considering that we have had a good match so far by assuming the Piri Reis
Map shows relative latitude accurately (although not nearly as well as north
of the equator; the scale of South America is too large), and that coastal
features like points and bays are accurately rendered, then south of the
smoothly curving coast at I-i there must be a cusp on the coast (j-J). The
next prominent point k could be the point beyond the Rio de la Plata (K).
The latitude is about right compared to the rest of South America.
Above is an alternative interpretation of the mystery area. It requires us
to assume the latitudes are badly off, something not hard to envision in
maps of that era. However, it matches the curves in the coast. Point k might
even correspond to the tip of Tierra del Fuago.
Antarctica?
Above is a map of South America and Antarctica with the Piri Reis coastline
in magenta. Southern South America and Antarctica are in the orthographic
projection - in other words they do look like they would as seen from space.
We can see the Piri Reis Map bears no resemblance at all to Antarctica. The
600-mile wide Drake Passage is not shown, nor are the large islands in the
Weddell Sea. The latitude is thousands of miles off.
So in response to people who ask how to explain why the Piri Reis Map shows
the coastline of Antarctica accurately, the answer is - it doesn't. It
especially doesn't show the subglacial coastline of Antarctica, which
corresponds to the existing coastline of Antarctica around most of the
continent anyway.
Rule #1 For Interpreting Ancient Maps (If You Want A Best Seller)
Anything that matches (or can be made to seem like a match to) existing
cartography is proof that the cartographer had access to secret knowledge.
Anything that doesn't match, doesn't count.
a.. Omission of major land masses, bodies of water, etc., doesn't count.
b.. Failure to draw your home country accurately doesn't count.
c.. Inclusion of non-existent features doesn't count, except if you want
to claim the map actually shows geography as it was in the Pleistocene,
Cretaceous, Precambrian, etc.
Rule #1 For Interpreting Ancient Maps (If You Seriously Want to Learn
Anything)
The map can be no better than its portrayal of the areas that were well
explored in the time and place the map was drawn. If it has significant
errors in known geography, claims that the map shows unknown geography are
simply worthless.
Some Real Mysteries About the Map
The map seems to show more detail than Europeans were likely to have in
1513. Pizarro hadn't been to Peru, yet, so how did Piri Reis know about the
Andes? Did somebody hear tales of mountains far inland? Also, the detail on
the South American coast seems a bit rich for 1513. Was the map begun then
and completed later? Was the map copied later and the date miscopied? But if
the map was derived from ancient sources that contained details otherwise
unknown to Europeans, why are so many parts of it so crude?
There's also a marginal note opposite South America that says "It is related
by the Portuguese infidel that in this spot night and day are at their
shortest of two hours, at their longest of twenty two hours. But the day is
very warm and in the night there is much dew." That would indicate a far
southern latitude, but note that the report explicitly comes from the
Portuguese, not from arcane ancient sources. It's possible that some
Portuguese expedition was blown very far south, not to Antarctica where the
days are rarely "very warm," but perhaps to 50 south or so.
Let's Hear it for Piri Reis
For 1513, this map shows an astonishing amount of detail. The notes on the
map explain that the map was synthesized from about 20 maps, many of which
were captured from Spanish and Portuguese ships in the Mediterranean. It was
also supplemented by accounts given by captured Spanish and Portuguese
sailors.
Not a map from some ancient Atlantean civilization, not a map created by
extraterrestrials, but a first class piece of naval intelligence.
Considering that it was created by a sailor whose country never participated
in the age of exploration, and that it's drawn wholly from second-hand
sources, it's an astonishing piece of work. It seems to contain
up-to-the-minute details derived from enemy maps, many of which would have
been tightly-guarded secrets.
There's a class of crank that hates the idea that other people might have
real accomplishments, because they never accomplish anything themselves. So
Shakespeare didn't write his plays, other people did; Robert Peary didn't
reach the North Pole as he claimed, and so on. And Piri Reis wasn't a gifted
admiral and good intelligence analyst, but had to get help from ancient lost
documents. Get a life, folks.
Same Old, Same Old
Here's a recent e-mail I got. My comments are in red.
So let me get this straight, regarding the Piri Reis map,
You feel that people are totally wrong and probably liars, when they claim:
"In 1953 ... the U.S. Navy Hydrographic Bureau ... Arlington H. Mallery, an
authority on ancient maps ... Mallery discovered the projection method used.
.... the map was totally accurate. ... The Hydrographic Office ... were ...
able to correct ... errors in the present days maps"
<
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm>
Yes, they are totally wrong. Certainly the people who created the web page
he cites did absolutely no original work of their own but are merely
parroting older pseudoscience works.
Reality check here. In 1953, we had just fought a major war in the Atlantic,
where errors in maps could lead to ships being sunk and battles being lost.
We're to believe a 16th century map was more accurate than charts used to
fight naval warfare in World War II when ships and lives depended on
cartographic accuracy? And what specific errors were found and corrected?
Where's the documentation that any of this ever actually happened?
Searching for Arlington H Mallery on line is revealing. He was a prolific
author of cult archeological theories, and at least a couple of times he got
into professional journals, only to get smacked down soundly for his errors.
Regarding your own page
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/PiriRies.HTM
"Most of the bizarre claims made for the Piri Reis Map utterly ignore the
marginal notes, which pretty conclusively show the map is entirely 16th
century terrestrial in origin."
Surely, assuming the translations of his notes are correct:
"The-hand of this poor man has drawn it and now it is constructed. From
about twenty charts and Mappae Mundi-these are charts drawn in the days of
Alexander, Lord of the Two Horns, which show the inhabited quarter of the
world; the Arabs name these charts Jaferiye-from eight Jaferiyes of that
kind and one Arabic map of Hind, and from the maps just drawn by four
Portuguese which show the countries of Hind, Sind and China geometrically
drawn, and also from a map drawn by Colombo in the western region I have
extracted it. By reducing all these maps to one scale this final form was
arrived at. So that the present map is as correct and reliable for the Seven
Seas as the map of these our countries is considered correct and reliable by
seamen."
Which seems to conclusively prove that he may have drawn this in the 16
century, but a lot of it is based on much older information.
Duh. If you draw a map from existing sources, they are certainly older. Note
the logical leap from "older" to "much older."
"One note refers to the land being "very hot," which probably rules out
Antarctica."
Well, if the ice was gone when they were there, it would be hot, wouldn't
it? He also writes "there are white-haired monsters ... , and also
six-horned oxen." - only quote what fits, eh? ;)
Gee, come on up to Wisconsin in May. The ice is gone (usually) but tell me
if it's "very hot." The quotes about white-haired monsters and six-horned
oxen further illustrate the inaccuracy of the source.
"The Piri Reis Map itself explicitly says the information in this area came
from European sources. Atlanteans and extraterrestrials need not apply. "
Actually, it says what Piri Reis thought - not who actually originally
authored the maps (not that I'm trying to prove extraterrestrials, you just
seem unnecessarily arrogant and condescending here.)
Oh, here we go again. Saying something based on technical information is
"arrogant," arguing about it with no background whatsoever, and expecting to
be taken seriously, isn't. More of the Self-Appointed Expert syndrome. Aww,
pity-poo.
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Created 8 July 1998, Last Update 13 February, 2007
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=== citat slut ====
Øh ... Det fik jeg ikke så meget ud af, desværre ...
(mig ikke tale ikke-dansk så godt.)
Findes der en dansk version ?
> > det kunne nu være ret fristende, dersom man er ung-jord-kreationist
> > tilhænger, at udråbe dette til det endegyldige bevis på, at
> > udviklingslæren har taget fejl.
>
> Hvilket nok siger mest om niveauet af 'beviser' som ung-jord-kreationister
> klamrer sig til.
Ja ...
Input memory:
6722 news:Csoji.8$qV1.1@news.get2net.dk
>
> > Det 3-årige uansvarlige pattebarn står og skaber sig i supermarkedet:
> >
> > Mig vil ha' en is.
> > Mig vil ha' et ungdomshus.
> > Mig vil ha', at I alle bliver muslimer (WTC, 2001-09-11)
> > Hvis mig ikke får min vilje, smadrer mig hele bulen!
Men sålænge de ikke terrorbomber os pga. dette ...
... (eller noget andet, fx. at vi nægter at bøje knæ for en
*falsk* profet ved navn Muhammed, apropos SHIRK), ...
.... så går det jo nok ...
-
Last file-OUTPUT:
6780 news:pJpmi.31$%z5.14@news.get2net.dk
Med venlig hilsen,
Mogens Kall, The servant of Michael, the *fool* of Christ.
--
Info: 6562 news:Nz%2i.95$7J5.39@news.get2net.dk
(use
http://groups.google.dk/group/no.kultur.folklore.ufo/ ).
(or
http://groups.google.dk/groups?q=Mogens+Kall&start=0&scoring=d& ).
File-number: 6781