<LehP6.400$p13.225336514@news.mobilixnet.dk> <9ekun5$mp2$1@egon.worldonline.dk>
<gJrP6.415$832.239845571@news.mobilixnet.dk>
<xXsP6.421$q12.241805348@news.mobilixnet.dk> <9elmdr$ft4$1@news.inet.tele.dk>
<tftP6.423$rU3.241964225@news.mobilixnet.dk> <9elnpc$ft4$2@news.inet.tele.dk>
<HutP6.424$gy6.242314408@news.mobilixnet.dk> <9elr6u$t84$1@katie.ellegaard.dk>
<9elv12$ro7$2@news.inet.tele.dk> <9em1fn$12c5$1@katie.ellegaard.dk>
<57272A2092057B2.264934C3017D0@microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <9er3sf$222v$1@katie.ellegaard.dk>
"'klaus@ellegaard.dk'" <klaus@ellegaard.dk> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:9er3sf$222v$1@katie.ellegaard.dk...
> >On the other hand, you could get copyright holders to take the binary violations seriously
> Jeg tror faktisk, at de snart begynder, hvis de ikke allerede er gået
> i gang.
Much to my surprise, I've just learned that the MPAA (motion picture Cabal of ameriKa) has taken an interest in movies, in particular in alt.binaries.movies, and is trying to stop posting there and in other similar groups. This explains the downturn in volume in that group which had been the leader out of all, and might even signal a change in growth, though the multimedia pr0n and CD images groups are keeping up.
If I were in the SSyregruppe, I'd be excreting masonry for being responsible for creating the dk movies group, and probably backpedaling to get it removed. But I'm not, so I can worry about other things.
> >And not to mention the growth in certain areas, like the dk binariez froups,
> Det kan jo styres lokalt. To af mine internationale peerings modtager
> ikke dk.binaer - det er ikke en del af Big8, alt og de relevante,
> lokale hierarkier.
Not really. The thing is, usenet is international, with a backbone that carries everything, and branches with leaf nodes that only carry a subset of everything. Unless a hierarchy is truly local, not to escape out of dk.*, requiring far more cooperation and care in configuration than today, it's going to get into the backbone and make it virtually everywhere.
TDC peers(ed?) with quite a number of large news outsourcers, and they try to carry everything, including the dk binaries. Also, the dk.binaer froups are an official part of dk.* and sites that follow control messages can reasonably expect to see traffic in them without needing to make special peering arrangements.
There are a number of TDC peerings that receive dk.binaer in order to get it distributed to other scandinavian and european as well as Murkin sites who want to carry it, but there are also a good number of international peerings that don't want it. The ones that do receive it do have a significant role in transit, seeing that nowadays due to bandwidth considerations, it seems to be the commercial NSPs that carry the responsibility to distribute binariez throughout the world. Not everyone can afford multiple outgoing 40Mbit/sec feeds...
News works well as a broadcast-like medium, a store-and-forward setup, where, say, an article posted and received by TDC immediately propagates to nearly 100 other sites, each of which then propagates it to between 10 and more than 100 more, and so on, until every site has it. Binariez get a less broad distribution, with perhaps 10 to 20 peers getting local binariez and then propagating them.
If one were to only feed dk.binaer by request, then the dk sites carrying it would get a lot of requests from the dozens of major news outsourcers and other insterested sites, and every site that wants to carry dk.binaer would be fed directly, meaning hundreds of feeds, rather than the 10 or so that now -- thanks to further distribution by the recipients -- suffice to get dk.binaer onto the backbone for any well-connected site that wants it to just tap into it rather than make special arrangements.
> At have et stort dansk hierarki er ok i Danmark,
> men det er ikke nødvendigt at eksportere det.
In order for this to work, you'd need to set up a very strict hierarchy with rules like in no.* and make use of distributions for security like they do. However, UUnet-DK seems to serve their users from a normal UUnet swerver, taking a long path into dk. A lot of people appear to read from and post to the news outsourcers like easynews and s00pernews, and nowadays ISPs often cross geographic boundaries (the news.tele.dk swerver also serves news.contactel.cz and news.talkline.nl plus a few other small countries from one machine), so you really can't effectively limit a hierarchy to stay within a country, without excluding a number of ISPs and customers.
> Eller importere andre
> landes tilsvarende binaries. Medmindre der er et specifikt ønske om
> det blandt kunderne, naturligvis.
But news doesn't work like that. Either you take in a full feed, or you don't. The recipient has no control over what comes in without convincing the sender what is wanted. Sure you can drop things before they reach the spool, but the bandwidth has still been burned up.
It would be kinda hard for a site to ask for, say, * without binaries, except for alt.binaries, in order to avoid the danish binaries. Because the danish groups don't match the !*binar* pattern that most peers would give me. TDC transits full feeds from its peers, simply because hierarchies that don't want international distribution have had to control that at the origin. And it simply doesn't work to contact all hundred-odd peers and have them fine-tune their feeds just to eliminate a few high-volume groups, particularly as those change in time.
> >Today it's easy for someone to download 1% of a full usenet feed, or a full day of posts to one of all but the movies groups, on a cheap line. It used to be that only people mooching from a company's high-speed connection were capable of this.
>
> Men skal en ISP se det som en god eller dårlig ting? Investeringen i
> news-udstyr er ikke lille, men de tunge news-kunder bruger lokal
> båndbredde.
True, but often the ISP sees the cost of the news hardware, without seeing the cost that adds to the international bandwidth...
> De rigtigt hardcore-brugere vil ikke stoppe med at hente
> film, hvis filmene forsvinder fra news. Så vil de hente dem fra ftp
> sites i udlandet, hvilket på sigt er langt dyrere for ISPen end at
> investere i news-udstyr.
In europe, today. However, in ameriKa, except for the largest ISPs (which seems to be all that is left nowadays), the bandwidth is cheaper than the hardware and additional news expenses. So an ISP of danish size would actually find it cheaper to outsource news and put in another fat pipe rather than invest in news.
I don't know how soon european prices will approach this level.
> Det er i hvert fald mit primære argument for nye investeringer
Yeah, that's what I was saying some time back. Sounds like you've stolen my words. However, when seen from the beancounters' perspective, what they see is the difference between zero investment in news, and a multi-zillion-quatloo investment in hardware with a year or less lifetime, plus the janitors to run it.
The bandwidth costs are hidden. The beancounters *know* they need to put out money for bandwidth, no matter what. Adding some number of megabytes/second to that which would be saved by a good news swerver just doesn't register on the radar. If you've already got a gig or two per second of international bandwidth, in spite of the cost of that, the additional news bandwidth, after adjusting for the reduction by dropping the incoming newsfeed, really isn't that much, based on the numbers I was seeing.
Of course, it could be that I wasn't seeing the right numbers, and the beancounters I had to deal with were happy to fund the Department of Bandwidth, since those funds were as far from funds for the Department of NewsCabal as you could get, and they simply couldn't see it that way, and weren't willing to make drastic changes in the way things were done.
Also, outside bandwidth, whether from some Napster-like site, or from a pay news service (which costs most users far more than they're willing to pay when they can suck several hundred dollars/month equivalent volume for free locally), is usually limited compared to the local news swerver that someone can suck from in the background. The cheapest NSPs offer less volume per month than an ADSL customer can suck in less than a day, so much of the bandwidth is just sucked because it's there, only to be trashed after downloading. Local news bandwidth doesn't translate 1:1 into international bandwidth. I'd probably even be having a Life instead if I had to pay to download news.
If the idea of news as a local bandwidth-saving service were to be a trump card for me, then you would think that the company would have also had interest in other low- to no-cost services to keep bandwidth local. But I couldn't get any interest in a streaming-audio project that I had in mind that would have been trivial to provide, delivering hundreds of megabits/sec of local bandwidth out to customers at practically no cost, seeing that a pilot test had resulted in total network overload from customer demand. But no, no interest.
(I am, of course, referring to the idea that had brought me back to danmark nearly two years ago, when I wanted to establish a distribution network for a somewhat popular kult-like radio sender, using the new high-speed flatrate connections to deliver music that would otherwise require a somewhat expensive satellite investment that would also not be practical for all potential listeners. It went nowhere and instead the stations that I had been interested in to participate in such a project turned to TDC's competition in norway to offer one service, and other companies elsewhere.)
> Mit feed er jo heller ikke komplet. Jeg har ikke kapacitet til
> WaReZ-grupperne, og traditionelt set har de manglet fra spoolet;
You do, however, have most of the multipart multimedia groups, which are rather popular. (Kinda surprising me; I would not have expected such interest in low-quality video that requires full attention, while, say, music can be enjoyed while one concentrates totally on something else like haX0ring. But that's just me.)
That's something that was pretty popular, though not quite as popular as the pr0n, and since Cybercity has the cutoff by size that's lower than the most common multipart size, that makes them useless for these groups.
> >Particularly when it comes to allocating resources to certain groups.
> Det er jo 90% af newsmaster-jobbet. Eller det BURDE det være.
Ha. HA HA. Ideally not. Unfortunately, I don't know what *should* be a newsbastard's work other than sampling beers. I know that what I was doing three years ago is very different from what I was doing less than a year ago. Three years ago I spent most of my time maintaining the group list, tracking down obscure hierarchies. Half a year ago I did none of this, and spent 90% of my time building and testing new machines to try to keep up with the news flow, and another 90% tracking network abuse like today's flood of kiddie pr0n URL spam made in several groups.
Ideally, one would only need to allocate resources once, when building a new swerver. The nice thing about the flexibility (a tradeoff against the lower performance) of the older INN was that a year and a half ago, I was able to dynamically change the allocation of space on news.tele.dk to correct for design decisions made more than two years ago, without any noticeable affect on readers. Periodically I'd made further adjustments, that would not have been possible with a more efficient spool without losing news.
> Jeg
> bruger snart mere tid på performance-tweaking, filtre til rogue
> cancels, spammende brugere (ja, også et par af mine egne) og at
> sortere fuskede newgroups med påståede diskussioner i alt.config.
Today, tracking abuse can be a full-time position, best carried out overnight (the kiddie pr0n started about 02h45 central european time and hasn't stopped), as is whacking customers running misconfigured news swervers at home, which I look at as a no-no. I didn't even bother trying to follow newgroups, instead deleting after-the-fact obviously bogus ones, those that got no traffic, and otherwise letting anyone create anything that passed simple filtering against rogue newgroup abuse.
Not that tracking abuse is worth it. It's a very thin line between letting past unwanted posts from anonymous posting services and failing to block the newest NewsAgent mutations. You'll never completely satisfy anyone. And if you have a reference swerver, you'll see just how bad a job you're really doing.
> >Of course, I could be spewing tech talk in the wrong place, so
> >FUT: dk.snak.mudderkastning
>
> Nah, d.e.u.i er da om noget til oplysning for kunderne om, hvad
dk.edb.underworld.inbreeders? SUBSCIRBE!!!
I find a much higher level of technical competence in muddergruppen, just like tele.test was the place to find technical discussion before people decided I wasn't welcome to abuse customers in english there. The fascist pig censorous paedophile NAZI SCHWEINHUNDE at TDC have decided to block crossposts to mudder groups, so while I can make them and you can see them, their customers cannot see them, and my posting service forbids followups due to past abuses. *suk*
I suggest a vote
[ ] keep your lort in mudderkastning, fjols
[ ] d.e.i.u is the proper place for slander and libel and innuendo, just look at the other topics
[ ] meow, meow meow mew. Meow meow, meow? Meow meow MEOW meow meow.