---

Hejsa,

Kunne godt lige tænke mig at høre om vi
( som erhvervskunde hos Orange/Mobilix ) er de
eneste der oplever at news-posts timer ud efter et par dage.
Hvad enten det er private eller erhverv kunder.

Stabiliteten af News-serveren er ellers blevet meget stabil
her på de sidste 3 uger, men beskederne timer meget hurtigt ud.

mvh

Martin D

---

"Martin" <damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:LehP6.400$p13.225336514@news.mobilixnet.dk...

> Kunne godt lige tænke mig at høre om vi
> ( som erhvervskunde hos Orange/Mobilix ) er de
> eneste der oplever at news-posts timer ud efter et par dage.
> Hvad enten det er private eller erhverv kunder.
>
> Stabiliteten af News-serveren er ellers blevet meget stabil
> her på de sidste 3 uger, men beskederne timer meget hurtigt ud.

Ja, i forbindelse med at Mobilix har besluttet at skifte navn til
Orange, har man samtidig besluttet at indføre nogle nye standarder på
usenet:
Ingen debat må vare længere end 18 timer!
Ingen brugere må vente mere end max 18 timer mellem hver opdatering af
news!

Kan man ikke leve op til disse to krav er man ikke værdig til at være
orange-kunde og har bare at lukke sin konto og finde sig en anden
udbyder, der ikke både kan og vil levere et newsfeed der kan
tilfredsstille de kunder der stiller urimelige krav om en fornuftig
retention i nyhedsgrupperne.

Mobilix (Orange) er i mere end et halvt år, jævnligt, og af mange,
blevet gjort opmærksom på problemet, men hidtil uden resultat! Gang på
gang får man at vide, at NU er problemet løst, nu er newsmaster
udskiftet, NU er en ny newsserver sat op, LIGE NU arbejdes der på
problemet!

Men ak og ve til de stakkels brugere, - selv indlæg i de interne
grupper bliver slettet og fjernet og nustillet sådan cirka en gang i
døgnet!

Henrik, kan du ikke fortælle os lidt om hvad der sker, kan vi ikke få
en udmelding fra Mobilix (Orange)? Der sker jo tilsyneladende kun
noget der du oplader din røst bag lukkede døre )

Med venlig hilsen Andreas Falck - ICQ 108 480 093
--
"Det evige Evangelium" - http://www.sda-net.dk/
Hvordan blive retfærdig: - http://hjem.get2net.dk/AFA1441/side-023.htm
Hvem er det sande Israel? - Hvad er sand tungetale? -
Hvem er Antikrist? - og mange andre artikler!

---

"Andreas Falck" <Andreas.Falck@sda-net.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:9ekun5$mp2$1@egon.worldonline.dk...
>
> Henrik, kan du ikke fortælle os lidt om hvad der sker, kan vi ikke få
> en udmelding fra Mobilix (Orange)? Der sker jo tilsyneladende kun
> noget der du oplader din røst bag lukkede døre )

Hej.

Jeg sidder ikke i news-service-afdelingen...men indlæg som disse sender jeg
til den ansvarlige gruppe + lægger dem på vores intranet....i håb om at der
vil blive gjort noget ved det.

I er bestemt ikke de eneste der er irriteret over den korte time-out.
Jeg ved faktisk ikke begrundelsen for at den er så kort.

De tilbagemeldinger jeg får, er at der arbejdes på sagen....hvor intensivt
ved jeg dog ikke.

Og personligt mener jeg at news-feed'et er blevet bedre....i det mindste er
det længe siden at samtlige grupper med 1 snuptag er blever nulstillet.

Mvh haa/mobilix-->snart-orange.

---

"Henrik Aarfeldt" <rivmin@rivmin.dk> wrote in message
news:gJrP6.415$832.239845571@news.mobilixnet.dk...
> Hej.
"klip"
> De tilbagemeldinger jeg får, er at der arbejdes på sagen....hvor intensivt
> ved jeg dog ikke.
"klip"
> Og personligt mener jeg at news-feed'et er blevet bedre....i det mindste
er
> det længe siden at samtlige grupper med 1 snuptag er blever nulstillet.
Korrekt Henrik,

Den bliver i det mindste ikke nulstillet hverdag/anden dag, det er da altid
noget, men er det virkelig
så svært at sætte TTL'en på sådan en Newsserver ?

Nu kan jeg se at hos TDC's Newserver loades mellem 13-26Gb incoming data om
dagen,
http://news.inet.tele.dk/innreport/ og ja .. det er da en del, men en
ordentlig server med et par/mange
monster diske burde sagtens kunne klare det ;)

mvh

Martin D
www.ohkk.dk

---

Martin <damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk> wrote:

> Nu kan jeg se at hos TDC's Newserver loades mellem 13-26Gb incoming data om
> dagen,
> http://news.inet.tele.dk/innreport/ og ja .. det er da en del, men en
> ordentlig server med et par/mange
> monster diske burde sagtens kunne klare det ;)

Et fuldt feed er ca. 300 GB om dagen. Det er næsten 4 MB/sek sustained. Det
er i sig selv ikke noget problem for en moderne disk, men når der er 1000
kunder der læser fra diskene samtidig er det en ret hård belastning.

/Jan

---

"Jan Chrillesen" <chrille@isa.dknet.dk> wrote in message
news:9elmdr$ft4$1@news.inet.tele.dk...
"klip"
> Et fuldt feed er ca. 300 GB om dagen. Det er næsten 4 MB/sek sustained.
Det
> er i sig selv ikke noget problem for en moderne disk, men når der er 1000
> kunder der læser fra diskene samtidig er det en ret hård belastning.
>
> /Jan
Nu er det vel heller ikke et fuld feed ISPerne dl ? Som det fremgår af TDCs
statestik, så
dl de max 70gb om dagen (også en del), ellers hedder det jo bare store
Raidservere i Cluster ;)

Jeg forstår heller ikke hvorfor ISPer ikke bare indgår et samarbejde med at
hinandens så
kunderne kan share samme Newsserver ? ville da være meget lettere og så
kunne de betale
½-delen hver !?!? meget mere økonomisk

Martin D
www.ohkk.dk

---

Martin <damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk> wrote:

> Nu er det vel heller ikke et fuld feed ISPerne dl ? Som det fremgår af TDCs
> statestik, så
> dl de max 70gb om dagen (også en del), ellers hedder det jo bare store
> Raidservere i Cluster ;)

Jo, det er det. De data du kan se er for TDCs gamle, forældede newsserver.
En ISP, der tilbyder alle de binære grupper, skal håndtere 300 GB data om
dagen, og det er kun data ind. Der skal også data ud til kunderne.

> Jeg forstår heller ikke hvorfor ISPer ikke bare indgår et samarbejde med at
> hinandens så
> kunderne kan share samme Newsserver ? ville da være meget lettere og så
> kunne de betale
> ½-delen hver !?!? meget mere økonomisk

Taget i betragtning hvor store problemer ISP'erne har med at drive en
newsserver til deres egne kunder, er der næppe nogle der er interesseret i
at forsøge at drive en for alle brugere i Danmark.

/Jan

---

"Jan Chrillesen" <chrille@isa.dknet.dk> wrote in message
news:9elnpc$ft4$2@news.inet.tele.dk...
"klip"
> Jo, det er det. De data du kan se er for TDCs gamle, forældede newsserver.
> En ISP, der tilbyder alle de binære grupper, skal håndtere 300 GB data om
> dagen, og det er kun data ind. Der skal også data ud til kunderne.
hmmm ... ok .. det skriver de jo heller ikke nogle steder ;)

"klip"
> Taget i betragtning hvor store problemer ISP'erne har med at drive en
> newsserver til deres egne kunder, er der næppe nogle der er interesseret i
> at forsøge at drive en for alle brugere i Danmark.
>
> /Jan

Nej, men så havde man da samlet problemet et sted. Hyre det bedste News-Team
af experter til 1mio om året, der kun skal passe det der, så burde det da
virke ;)

ISPerne er jo heller ikke interesseret i alt den dårlige omtale hvad angår
deres Newsserver
der ikke kører osv. alt i alt ville det være mere økonomisk og smart at
samle det hele
og hyre de bedste folk i brancen til at styre den/de newsservere så

Martin D

---

"Martin" <damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk> writes:

>Nej, men så havde man da samlet problemet et sted. Hyre det bedste News-Team
>af experter til 1mio om året, der kun skal passe det der, så burde det da
>virke ;)

Det ville unægteligt være et drømmejob, specielt hvis man kunne lokke
folk som Chrille til også at deltage.

Omvendt ville det også betyde, at "Danmarks news-server" ville være
nede, hvis noget gik galt. Og at der ikke fandtes noget alternativ
for folk, hvis man var uenig i en administrativ beslutning. I dag er
der da indtil flere muligheder for kunderne.

>ISPerne er jo heller ikke interesseret i alt den dårlige omtale hvad angår
>deres Newsserver der ikke kører osv. alt i alt ville det være mere
>økonomisk og smart at samle det hele og hyre de bedste folk i brancen
>til at styre den/de newsservere så

Ideelt set, ja.

Men generelt kan man vel sige, at eksplosionen i news-trafik virkelig
er kommet en overraskelse for alle ISPerne - ikke blot i Danmark. Det
betyder, at de fleste udbydere "om kort tid" (jaja, det har nogle nok
sagt lidt længe, men de mener det nok også) kan tilbyde en væsentligt
forbedret service.

Vel at mærke på hver deres måde. Hvilket i sig selv er en god ting.

Mvh.
   Klaus.

---

Klaus Ellegaard <klaus@ellegaard.dk> wrote:

> Men generelt kan man vel sige, at eksplosionen i news-trafik virkelig
> er kommet en overraskelse for alle ISPerne

I bund og grund har udviklingen inden for news ikke ændret sig i flere år. En
fordobling af volumen ca. hver 6. måned og et konstant antal af artikler.
Så på den måde er det ikke en overraskelse, men det er nok kommet som en
overraskelse hvor svært det er at administrere et medie, der udvikler sig
hurtigere end den teknologi, der skal til at styre det (disk- og CPU
kapacitet fordobles ikke hver 6. måned)

/Jan

---

Jan Chrillesen <chrille@isa.dknet.dk> writes:

>> Men generelt kan man vel sige, at eksplosionen i news-trafik virkelig
>> er kommet en overraskelse for alle ISPerne

>I bund og grund har udviklingen inden for news ikke ændret sig i flere år. En
>fordobling af volumen ca. hver 6. måned og et konstant antal af artikler.
>Så på den måde er det ikke en overraskelse, men det er nok kommet som en
>overraskelse hvor svært det er at administrere et medie, der udvikler sig
>hurtigere end den teknologi, der skal til at styre det (disk- og CPU
>kapacitet fordobles ikke hver 6. måned)

Jeg tror nok, at mange (mig selv inklusive) har sagt, "ej, nu knækker
den kurve altså". Men det gjorde den ikke.

Én ting er også, at det indgående feed ligger på en nogenlunde fast
udvikling. Noget helt andet er, at hvor man før i tiden (læs: for et
halvt år siden) så en nogenlunde konstant interesse blandt kunderne,
er kundernes interesse også eksploderet.

Det var nu ganske ventet, at kunderne ville fatte større interesse
for de binære grupper, når de fik mere båndbredde mellem hænderne.
Alligevel er jeg meget overrasket over udviklingen her; specielt er
interessen steget markant siden nytår på "mine" servere.

Mvh.
   Klaus.

---

"Martin" <damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk> writes:

>Jeg forstår heller ikke hvorfor ISPer ikke bare indgår et samarbejde med at
>hinandens så kunderne kan share samme Newsserver ? ville da være meget
>lettere og så kunne de betale ½-delen hver !?!? meget mere økonomisk

Tjah, det er jo det, der er sket i USA. Derovre er det fåtallet af
udbyderne, der har egne news-servere.

Men jeg tror, det kommer til at vare et stykke tid, før vi ser noget
lignende i Danmark. Prøv at kigge på forskelligheden af de enkelte
news-servere. Hvem skulle bestemme politikken for den fælles server?

Et eller andet sted er news også en del af diversiteten i markedet:
den-og-den har et rigtigt godt text-spool, den-anden har et meget
bedre binary-spool, og den-derovre har næsten ingen spam.

Mvh.
   Klaus.

---

"'damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk'" <damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:tftP6.423$rU3.241964225@news.mobilixnet.dk...

> "Jan Chrillesen" <chrille@isa.dknet.dk> wrote in message
> > Et fuldt feed er ca. 300 GB om dagen. Det er næsten 4 MB/sek sustained.

> Nu er det vel heller ikke et fuld feed ISPerne dl ? Som det fremgår af TDCs
> statestik, så
> dl de max 70gb om dagen (også en del), ellers hedder det jo bare store

Please note that the stats you are looking at are for --
* a news swerver that is not even attempting to take in a full feed, but is discarding everything but text and pr0n pictures (no multipart multimedia groups!)
* a news swerver that, due to performance problems, limits downloads of binariez pr0n to off-hours -- no pr0n downloads are possible workday afternoons, evenings, and part of the night

Based on this, one can state the following:
* text needs out of a full feed are a gigabyte or three per day
* if one discards all binariez except for the most popular pr0n pictures, about 20GB/day of a full newsfeed (ca. 300GB/day now) is pr0n; even less if one were to actually filter out multiparts

The 13-16GB you see incoming per day has included a few days of serious problems, and perhaps should be closer to 20GB/day -- I suspect the quality of the news pHarm to keep up with a full feed is less than it should be today

The download volume, because it does not include pr0n during the time when the most customers are reading (evening), *can* be much higher. I've seen it at more than 160GB/day with only 16GB/day incoming.

The download of binaries is restricted because the existing machine simply cannot keep up. In spite of this, there is plenty of capacity for text readership from the world that has negligible effect.

If the machine were to be pr0n-only with filtering ahead of it, it would have more reserve to allow downloads all day and night, for well over 300GB/day worth of downloads. The unhacked k0de wastes a lot of time that could be saved by politically incorrect k0dehacks that are not wanted.

The machine itself, were it to be given a full newsfeed, could not even keep it for half a day. Instead, it has been given a life as text plus pr0n swerver, to give the most ``value'' in its present long-obsolete state.


> Jeg forstår heller ikke hvorfor ISPer ikke bare indgår et samarbejde med at
> hinandens så
> kunderne kan share samme Newsserver ? ville da være meget lettere og så

The demand is for binariez, not text. TDC Internet could easily supply all danish readers with text groups from news.tele.dk. However, news is a money-losing operation; particularly when large binary downloads come into play.

Now, you *could* be reading text groups like this one for free from news.tele.dk, just as you can from sunsite, but *why* ??? The TDC news swerver has a reputation for being highly-censored, with a lot of ``unwanted'' posts missing.

A lot of people don't want this -- they want an unfiltered feed with everything, so they can do their own filtering. Yes, TDC used to offer two different machines, the second almost as unfiltered as altopia. But not now, and probably not in the future.

Today, the only way an ISP can attract newsreader customers is to offer something *different* from everyone else, something more desirable. For some, this will be a well-filtered feed. For others, a swerver with weeks or months of retention. For still others, everything that's out there.

Now, with filtering the biggest difference between ISPs and commercial news providers, with practically no two the same, offering an heavily-censored feed excludes those who want a totally unfiltered feed. And vice versa.

It is possible for one provider to offer a news service to others. But the additional load those others add is likely to be much greater than the additional revenue can support. And when news is a money-loser to start with, that just means the ISP will lose more. I've seen individual customers place far more load on a machine than they pay to the provider.

Today, when bandwidth in the US costs nearly nothing, it pays for ISPs to let someone else do their news. While still in europe, the cost of the E3 or equivalent is higher than it costs to provide a miserable and pathetic news service. Since so few people care about news, most places will offer an inadequate service rather than pay more to be able to do it right.

This is why you aren't likely to see a S00perGigaDanNewsPheedScum.dk anytime soon...


Of course, I could be wrong.

---

Jan Chrillesen <chrille@isa.dknet.dk> writes:

>Et fuldt feed er ca. 300 GB om dagen. Det er næsten 4 MB/sek sustained. Det
>er i sig selv ikke noget problem for en moderne disk, men når der er 1000
>kunder der læser fra diskene samtidig er det en ret hård belastning.

Og så er der lige feeding, ensretning, spamfiltrering, transport
til storage containers og alle de andre, CPU-, RAM- og netværks-
intensive detaljer, som folk plejer at glemme, når man snakker
news.

Diskene er ikke just den eneste begrænsning i et news-setup. Til
gengæld er diskene de eneste dele, der går i stykker af den hårde
belastning.

Mvh.
   Klaus.

---

"'damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk'" <damberg_removethis_@ohkk.dk> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:HutP6.424$gy6.242314408@news.mobilixnet.dk...

> Nej, men så havde man da samlet problemet et sted. Hyre det bedste News-Team
> af experter til 1mio om året, der kun skal passe det der, så burde det da
> virke ;)

Yeah right. For that much money, you could hire a whole TEAM of full-time newsadmanagers, like ten or twelve! Though it definitely helps for a hands-on news team to have someone keeping an eye on things during european overnight hours, when most things happen, rather than just during normal work hours.

However, while it isn't easy to find a good newsbastard, (nor is it easy for a good newsbastard to find any work), even the best news team can't come up with a decent news service out of thin air. It requires a substantial and ever-increasing investment in hardware.

Sure, a good news team can do far more with a given hardware budget than someone without a clue, but you're talking a far higher investment in hardware than you are in skilled newsjanitors. When news is a money-loser to start out with.

And because of the growth in news, the newsjanitors will be spending much of their time simply upgrading the hardware to keep up with the growth, so essentially you're talking about a continuous flow of money into hardware with a few months to maybe a year lifetime.

Of course, a newsjanitor who does her or his job is going to burn out after no more than a few months just because of what news has turned into, unless that newsjanitor ignores the content of news and delivers inferior content.

So hiring people is half of what's needed. Actually, I'd say it's the less important half, and if attention isn't given to the other half, you'll have no more than a room full of highly-skilled highly-bored technicians sitting twiddling their thumbs and discussing beer and throwing things at each other, while the quality of the news service continues to burrow its way towards the center of the earth.


Of course, I could be incompetent.

---

A Device Which is Oscillating <me0w@bungmunchREMOVE-TO-REPLY.com> writes:

>So hiring people is half of what's needed. Actually, I'd say it's the less important half, and if attention isn't given to the other half, you'll have no more than a room full of highly-skilled highly-bored technicians sitting twiddling their thumbs and discussing beer and throwing things at each other, while the quality of the news service continues to burrow its way towards the center of the earth.

So when do we start?

Mvh.
   Klaus.

---

"'Jan Chrillesen'" <chrille@isa.dknet.dk> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:9elv12$ro7$2@news.inet.tele.dk...

Just WHAT is this technical discussion doing here? Technical discussions should be kept to the Official Technical Support Group, dk.snak.mudderkastning !!!
FUT: dk.snak.mudderkastning, fjols!!!!!!!!!!


> Klaus Ellegaard <klaus@ellegaard.dk> wrote:
> > Men generelt kan man vel sige, at eksplosionen i news-trafik virkelig
> > er kommet en overraskelse for alle ISPerne
>
> I bund og grund har udviklingen inden for news ikke ændret sig i flere år. En
> fordobling af volumen ca. hver 6. måned og et konstant antal af artikler.

To be precise, the number of articles has started to climb again over the last months, as the average binary article size drops and the binary volume grows. But apart from its effect on, say, history files, this is a negligible consideration for an adequately-prepared provider.

The big problem that I had was to convince others of the need to keep up with the growth. I knew what today's volume would be. It was pretty much exactly a year ago that I said, hey, I need new equipment. I need *terabytes* of disk space, and I need gigabit ethernet.

The thing is, I know that when I ask for X amount of disk space today for news, it will need to be replaced in a year to keep satisfactory service. At which time I'll ask for about four times the last amount of space I had. But it seems that other people can't comprehend this.

Now, I asked for terabytes of space a year ago. It wasn't even delivered until about half a year ago. And only now is it under test -- it isn't even in full production yet! And now is when I would have planned to be building a replacement.

And that gigabit ethernet. You know I was told ``NO.'' when I said I needed it a year ago. Ever since September or October the limit of the old 100Mbit/sec ethernet was reached, and since that time, some to nearly half of the newsfeed has gone missing and as a result, news has sucked.

So, now the gigabit interface is finally operational after nearly a year. Is that fast turnaround or what. Once again, a well-known bottleneck has been solved only to reveal another somewhere else, so things still suck.

So the lengthy delay in upgrading the hardware simply to keep up has hurt performance. Or, as was the case in the already-obsolete news02 replacement that today has no more than two days of retention plus out-of-date disk bandwidth that can't be expected to keep up or more importantly, catch up with a full feed, obsolete hardware that already needs to be upgraded.

I personally have a difficult time to plan ahead, particularly to plan for a year from now when I can't predict the trends that will influence the next year of growth. At the beginning of the year, I would have asked for a 10 terabyte news spool when the smaller one was finally delivered.

If a service is growing at this rate totally independent of growth or reduction of the customer base, then news will grab a disproportionate share of resources that a lot of people will not be eager to offer. Note before that I've said news is a money-loser for all but the largest of outsourcers and ISPs, and even then it's a tooth-and-nail competition.

Let's look at it a different way. The volume of news today is such that from the time I first set foot in danmark in search of gainful employment (what a fool I was), I'd need about a 250x larger machine. Next year it would be 1000x larger. And it wasn't that long ago that I snuck past immigration, though it may seem like forever for both of us.

Now that's very different to tell the beancounters, than to simply say that growth has increased 2x every half year or so. I can't even remember how large that cursed AIeeeeX box was that did news -- 70GB? If so, a machine of comparable capacity today would be more like 15TB, which, oddly enough, is the same ratio I requested to the sound of jaws hitting the carpeted floor.


> Så på den måde er det ikke en overraskelse, men det er nok kommet som en
> overraskelse hvor svært det er at administrere et medie, der udvikler sig
> hurtigere end den teknologi, der skal til at styre det (disk- og CPU
> kapacitet fordobles ikke hver 6. måned)

It's no surprise to me. It was a surprise to the people who had a say whether or not I could get what I needed. And still, it was too little, too late. You know how I was essentially upgrading machines every three months or so just to try to keep up, taking time away from other things.

The thing, though, is that the growth in binaries in usenet requires far more than just a comparable increase in disk space. It used to be that the pattern of downloads was such that a well-designed and -equipped system could keep up with the limited selection of pr0n. But several things happened since the last machine was built.

For one thing, the relative cache size is much smaller than before, meaning that disk access actually has to hit the disk far more. But as I noted, non-binary load is trivial, so that plenty more text readers can be supported when pr0n must be denied from paying customers. You have a huge increase in binariez readers compared to a few years ago.

Up until about a year ago, news was a natural money loser by the incoming bandwidth exceeding customer downloads, until suddenly ADSL burst on the scene. Suddenly the headroom disappeared as the load of binary-sucking customers made itself known, and how the hardware couldn't support binary readers so easily in such numbers.

Today you need to multiply the growth in usenet volume by an even higher growth in customer demand, so that the machine you built two years ago with plenty of headroom back then can't even serve out pr0n today without running out of steam. So instead of 4x the hardware muscle every year, you need much more than 4x.

A year ago when I saw the needs of news in the then coming months, nobody else was even nearing that sort of need for bandwidth or capacity. That's far different than things were before I stepped in. Maybe things would have been different had I not met with strong resistance to upgrades. I know things would have been very different for me.

On the other hand, a year ago I was willing to do whatever was needed to provide what I felt was a decent news service. As I spent months unable to keep up, I changed my thinking to do what it takes to do even a small part to keep the growth down. The increase in dk.binaer* over a couple months by a factor of 4x was one thing I decided to try to stop, though a year ago I planned to set aside several hundred gigs just for danish mp3z and videos.

I guess it looks different when you say you need more than 8x today's hardware, if you're gonna plan for a year just for something to happen, instead of 2x twice a year. Not that either will bring joy to the beancounters. Plus, you can't predict what tomorrow will bring. What will happen with mp3s? Or DVDs? And what if flatrate suddenly disappears like in other countries?


Of course, I could be an unrepentant pedophile.

---

A Device Which is Oscillating <me0w@bungmunchREMOVE-TO-REPLY.com> writes:

>Let's look at it a different way. The volume of news today is such that from the time I first set foot in danmark in search of gainful employment (what a fool I was), I'd need about a 250x larger machine. Next year it would be 1000x larger. And it wasn't that long ago that I snuck past immigration, though it may seem like forever for both of us.

Det er skægt at se, hvordan en flok mennesker med præcis den samme
jobbeskrivelse kan løse opgaven så totalt forskelligt.

Da jeg satte den nuværende løsning op, var jeg helt klar over, at
der ville ske en voldsom stigning i antallet af brugere. Readerne
har det også stadig fint - med 6 gange så mange aktive brugere som
da løsningen blev sat i produktion, er jeg stadig under 50% af
kapaciteten på readerne. Og kan sagtens følge med, når masser af
2 Mbps ADSL-kunder sutter pr0n ned i døgndrift.

Min største bummert var helt klart at tro, at feedet ville knække
på et tidspunkt. Jeg troede/håbede/whatever, at det ville ske ved
omkring de 150 GB/dag. Snydt. Meget.

Jeg sidder derfor med en løsning, der ikke er den store fremtid i.
Den skalerer uden besvær til mindst 3 TB, og den kan nemt skalere
væsentligt mere, hvis man har folk nok til at nusse om den. Det
har jeg bare ikke.

Jeg er i øvrigt imponeret over Typhoon. Det er noget møg ud fra
et administrativt synspunkt, medmindre man bare vil sætte den hen
i hjørnet og glemme alt om den. Jeg synes heller ikke, at jeg får
noget som helst ud af de support-fees, vi betaler for produktet.
Men performance-mæssigt tror jeg ikke, at man kan finde noget, der
er bedre. Det er bare synd, Highwind/bCandid/OpenWave/Software.com
eller hvad de nu hedder i denne uge, ikke har fortsat udviklingen
af det.

>Up until about a year ago, news was a natural money loser by the incoming bandwidth exceeding customer downloads, until suddenly ADSL burst on the scene. Suddenly the headroom disappeared as the load of binary-sucking customers made itself known, and how the hardware couldn't support binary readers so easily in such numbers.

Men det er samtidig positivt: med satellit-feeds og et ratio, der
er væsentligt bedre end 1:1 i udnyttelsesgrad, er news pludselig
igen interessant at hælde penge i. Specielt i betragtning af, at
flere og flere kunder opdager premium providerne i USA. Multicast
over satellit er betydeligt billigere end Å++ kunder, der henter
de samme pr0nfilm i USA.

Den større og større spredning, der sker i forbrugsmønstrene på
news, er også interessant. Jeg har de sidste måneder kørt forsøg
på at splitte tjenesten op i separate dele, og det ser ud til,
at det er en succes. Det er vel også det, bl.a. newsfeeds.com
længe har gjort, omend deres service vist i sig selv ikke er
særlig god.

Med et par konservative estimater på, hvor meget transatlantisk
(og europæisk nu hvor ClaraNews er kommet op) båndbredde der kan
spares, tror jeg ikke, at det er specielt svært at få ledelsen
til at hoste op med nyt udstyr. Men man skal gøre sig det klart,
at der skal gode og holdbare argumenter på bordet. Og at man ikke
slipper udenom at lave en flok regneark.

>I guess it looks different when you say you need more than 8x today's hardware, if you're gonna plan for a year just for something to happen, instead of 2x twice a year. Not that either will bring joy to the beancounters. Plus, you can't predict what tomorrow will bring. What will happen with mp3s? Or DVDs? And what if flatrate suddenly disappears like in other countries?

Jeg er i hvert fald holdt op med at tro på, at kurven knækker. Det
skulle da lige være, hvis ophavsrets-organisationerne får fingeren
ud af det sted, hvor de øjensynlig har proppet den hen for mange,
mange år siden.

Mvh.
   Klaus, der som sædvanlig taler helt og aldeles på egne vegne.

---

---

"'klaus@ellegaard.dk'" <klaus@ellegaard.dk> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:9em1fn$12c5$1@katie.ellegaard.dk...

> >fordobling af volumen ca. hver 6. måned og et konstant antal af artikler.

> Jeg tror nok, at mange (mig selv inklusive) har sagt, "ej, nu knækker
> den kurve altså". Men det gjorde den ikke.

This is not likely to happen by itself. People's connections are getting faster; more media is possible to be posted. The only thing that could make any real difference is if the brakes were to be put on this somewhat ``anonymous'' means of trading binaries and stuff.

On the one hand, you have the sudden drop in popularity of Napster direct filesharing, and the vulnerability of the replacement one-to-one filesharing methods to the same problems to affect Napster. A lot of this activity could easily migrate to usenet, where it isn't quite so visible, and that would continue the increase in postings.

On the other hand, you could get copyright holders to take the binary violations seriously and actually do something about them. This would have the same effect as the Napster crackdown, and in fact has happened where a few companies, such as ALS Scans and Suze Randall, have gone after anyone posting their materials, changing those binariez groups that had more than a gig of posts each per day into dead and empty ghost towns.

This is the only thing, apart from ISP actions to limit the growth, that is likely to slow the increase. The explosion in number of the unmanaged and uncontrolled binariez groups means there are plenty of locations for the same material to be duplicated repeatedly. The poor performance of many ISPs encourages people to repost material unnecessarily to try to get it into sites that are having problems.

And not to mention the growth in certain areas, like the dk binariez froups, that had taken up less than 1/2 of 1% of the total news volume but within a couple months, was taking 2% of the world's volume, and if that growth had been allowed to continue, one tiny hierarchy would be something like 10% of more than 300GB per day today.

Yeah, physical limits will be hit, but as news is combined from thousands of sites around the world, there isn't one thing that will by itself cause a natural drop in growth. When you look at it, with today's highspeed connections, only a small handful of people could match today's news volume if they were to continuously upload. Heck, if I didn't have to pay per-byte colocation charges, I could practically do so myself.


> udvikling. Noget helt andet er, at hvor man før i tiden (læs: for et
> halvt år siden) så en nogenlunde konstant interesse blandt kunderne,
> er kundernes interesse også eksploderet.

Again, due to the get-something-for-nothing idea behind most postings, and the recent introduction of flatrate highspeed connections, so that today you're seeing the growth sites in the US were seeing a few years ago.

Today it's easy for someone to download 1% of a full usenet feed, or a full day of posts to one of all but the movies groups, on a cheap line. It used to be that only people mooching from a company's high-speed connection were capable of this.

You also have customer machinery today that can do for minimal cost things which previously were limited to professional hardware, so it's not unreasonable for someone to have a hundred gigs or more of free space to be filled with pirated goodies and the ability to work with high-bandwidth media like video. That they can write to a half-deutschemark CD-ROM if they want to keep it.


> Alligevel er jeg meget overrasket over udviklingen her; specielt er
> interessen steget markant siden nytår på "mine" servere.

That should really be no surprise. The quality of the TDC news swerver has been in the toilet for nearly a year, and not so good for some time before that. People have gotten fed up with this miserable performance and no sign of improvement and moved elsewhere. WOL or whoever they wannabe today is the only provider who has had a reputation for a good news service during this time and is a logical target for binariez freaks.

And given that TDC had been carrying perhaps 20% of a newsfeed, now down to only about 5%, even if it is the most popular 5%, that's 95% that a lot of people are going to want from somewhere. I think you've heard about the Mobilange service...

You may be able to pin the other growth on various other service offerings, just like I noted a jump in usage and load as ADSL came online. The problem is, it's difficult to predict any of these things in advance, apart from the continuing exponential growth in volume, so it's almost impossible to allocate adequate resources ahead of time.

Particularly when it comes to allocating resources to certain groups. The distribution by size of articles is radically different today than it was some nine months ago when I laid out one machine, so that today its spool layout is worthless and should be redone from bottom up. Maybe a year ago CD images were the space hog; today it's videos, so a spool allocation needs to be changed to keep multimedia in line.

Today's problem that I didn't expect to be seeing some months back, is the posting of multipart multimedia into picture groups not intended for them. To handle this well again requires a spool redesign and even work on the transit portion of the feed. This is another reason why I spec machines for not much more than a half year lifetime -- I don't want to be tied into mistakes I made because I couldn't predict the future needs.

Basically, what all this means is that certain parts of a newsfeed grow much faster than others, so that even if after half a year, overall retention time would be halved, if I've, say, given a couple hundred gigs to pr0n pictures with a month of retention last summer, that space would today be limited to an unacceptable few days of storage.


Of course, I could be spewing tech talk in the wrong place, so
FUT: dk.snak.mudderkastning

---

A Device Which is Oscillating <me0w@bungmunchREMOVE-TO-REPLY.com> writes:

>This is not likely to happen by itself. People's connections are getting faster; more media is possible to be posted. The only thing that could make any real difference is if the brakes were to be put on this somewhat ``anonymous'' means of trading binaries and stuff.

Du har selvfølgelig helt ret.

>On the other hand, you could get copyright holders to take the binary violations seriously and actually do something about them.

Jeg tror faktisk, at de snart begynder, hvis de ikke allerede er gået
i gang.

Det var nok Napster, der fik dem til at se problemet. Nu har de fået
lukket det ned - i en vis grad. Det vil være unaturligt, hvis de bare
satte sig ned og glædede sig over resultatet. "One down. Who's next?"
er nok et mere realistisk bud.

Den kommende EU-lovgivning er også delvist med ophavsretshaverne.
ISPer skal - så vidt jeg kan se - ikke gøre noget aktivt for at stoppe
udbredelsen af beskyttet/ulovligt materiale. Men som med DMCA skal de
fjerne evt. materiale, når de bliver gjort opmærksom på, at det er
ulovligt.

Det kan hurtigt lægge en meget stor dæmper på mængden af materiale i
alt.binaries. Hvilket et eller andet sted er en God Ting (tm).

>And not to mention the growth in certain areas, like the dk binariez froups, that had taken up less than 1/2 of 1% of the total news volume but within a couple months, was taking 2% of the world's volume, and if that growth had been allowed to continue, one tiny hierarchy would be something like 10% of more than 300GB per day today.

Det kan jo styres lokalt. To af mine internationale peerings modtager
ikke dk.binaer - det er ikke en del af Big8, alt og de relevante,
lokale hierarkier. At have et stort dansk hierarki er ok i Danmark,
men det er ikke nødvendigt at eksportere det. Eller importere andre
landes tilsvarende binaries. Medmindre der er et specifikt ønske om
det blandt kunderne, naturligvis.

>Yeah, physical limits will be hit, but as news is combined from thousands of sites around the world, there isn't one thing that will by itself cause a natural drop in growth. When you look at it, with today's highspeed connections, only a small handful of people could match today's news volume if they were to continuously upload. Heck, if I didn't have to pay per-byte colocation charges, I could practically do so myself.

Korrekt. I dag er det nok primært manglen på materiale, der sætter
begrænsningen. Der er kun et vist antal film/warez/whatever som
folk har interesse i at uploade.

>Today it's easy for someone to download 1% of a full usenet feed, or a full day of posts to one of all but the movies groups, on a cheap line. It used to be that only people mooching from a company's high-speed connection were capable of this.

Men skal en ISP se det som en god eller dårlig ting? Investeringen i
news-udstyr er ikke lille, men de tunge news-kunder bruger lokal
båndbredde. De rigtigt hardcore-brugere vil ikke stoppe med at hente
film, hvis filmene forsvinder fra news. Så vil de hente dem fra ftp
sites i udlandet, hvilket på sigt er langt dyrere for ISPen end at
investere i news-udstyr.

Det er i hvert fald mit primære argument for nye investeringer

>You also have customer machinery today that can do for minimal cost things which previously were limited to professional hardware, so it's not unreasonable for someone to have a hundred gigs or more of free space to be filled with pirated goodies and the ability to work with high-bandwidth media like video. That they can write to a half-deutschemark CD-ROM if they want to keep it.

....og muligheden for at producere materiale selv fra egne DVDer
og udsende dem.

>> Alligevel er jeg meget overrasket over udviklingen her; specielt er
>> interessen steget markant siden nyt=E5r p=E5 "mine" servere.

>And given that TDC had been carrying perhaps 20% of a newsfeed, now down to only about 5%, even if it is the most popular 5%, that's 95% that a lot of people are going to want from somewhere. I think you've heard about the Mobilange service...

Mit feed er jo heller ikke komplet. Jeg har ikke kapacitet til
WaReZ-grupperne, og traditionelt set har de manglet fra spoolet;
igen primært af pladsmangel. (Da jeg blev newsmaster var det
totale spool vist omkring 30 GB).

Men bortset fra warez- og cd-image-grupper (som jo også primært
er warez), prøver jeg at holde på det hele. Med forskellige og
generelt ret lav retention, men det er der dog.

>You may be able to pin the other growth on various other service offerings, just like I noted a jump in usage and load as ADSL came online. The problem is, it's difficult to predict any of these things in advance, apart from the continuing exponential growth in volume, so it's almost impossible to allocate adequate resources ahead of time.

Enig. Jeg gruer for den dag, hvor de sætter båndbredden op til 8
Mbps downstream. Eller der sker en eksplosion i antallet af ADSL
kunder lige pludselig.

>Particularly when it comes to allocating resources to certain groups. The distribution by size of articles is radically different today than it was some nine months ago when I laid out one machine, so that today its spool layout is worthless and should be redone from bottom up. Maybe a year ago CD images were the space hog; today it's videos, so a spool allocation needs to be changed to keep multimedia in line.

Det er jo 90% af newsmaster-jobbet. Eller det BURDE det være. Jeg
bruger snart mere tid på performance-tweaking, filtre til rogue
cancels, spammende brugere (ja, også et par af mine egne) og at
sortere fuskede newgroups med påståede diskussioner i alt.config.

Oh well, man kan vel ikke forvente bedre arbejdsvilkår

>Today's problem that I didn't expect to be seeing some months back, is the posting of multipart multimedia into picture groups not intended for them. To handle this well again requires a spool redesign and even work on the transit portion of the feed. This is another reason why I spec machines for not much more than a half year lifetime -- I don't want to be tied into mistakes I made because I couldn't predict the future needs.

Vi vil nok altid lave forkerte beslutninger. Men man kan jo prøve
at begrænse dem.

Én måde at begrænse multiparts en *smule* er at droppe artikler,
der er crossposted mellem pictures og multimedia. Det fanger ikke
særligt mange, men nogle fanger det da. Og i pictures-spools gør
selv en lille smule en stor forskel på retention.

Jeg kan til gengæld ikke beslutte mig for, om man skal filtrere
dem væk med henvisning til fundatsen for grupperne: multimedia
er ikke billeder. Forsvind. Eller om man skal tillade dem og
udvide spoolene derefter.

Fremtiden vil vel vise, om det er en trend, der bliver ved. Jeg
tror desværre, at det er tilfældet.

>Basically, what all this means is that certain parts of a newsfeed grow much faster than others, so that even if after half a year, overall retention time would be halved, if I've, say, given a couple hundred gigs to pr0n pictures with a month of retention last summer, that space would today be limited to an unacceptable few days of storage.

Same old story. Men som du siger - harddiske vokser ikke så hurtigt
som newsfeeds.

>Of course, I could be spewing tech talk in the wrong place, so
>FUT: dk.snak.mudderkastning

Nah, d.e.u.i er da om noget til oplysning for kunderne om, hvad
vi går og laver. Det er da ret meget on-topic endda

Mvh.
   Klaus.

---

"A Device Which is Oscillating" <me0w@bungmunchREMOVE-TO-REPLY.com> wrote in
message news:57272A2092057B2.264934C3017D0@microsoft.com...
"'klaus@ellegaard.dk'" <klaus@ellegaard.dk> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:9em1fn$12c5$1@katie.ellegaard.dk...

> >fordobling af volumen ca. hver 6. måned og et konstant antal af artikler.

> Jeg tror nok, at mange (mig selv inklusive) har sagt, "ej, nu knækker
> den kurve altså". Men det gjorde den ikke.

> On the other hand, you could get copyright holders to take the binary
violations seriously and actually do something about them. This would have
the same effect as the Napster crackdown, and in fact has happened where a
few companies, such as ALS Scans and Suze Randall, have gone after anyone
posting their materials, changing those binariez groups that had more than a
gig of posts each per day into dead and empty ghost towns.

Jeg tror nok at ALS og Suze Randall primært har gået efter amerikanske
brugere, det vil være alt for besværligt for dem at sagsøge f.eks. en
dansker. Efterhånden som flere folk får båndbredden rundt omkring i verden,
kan man meget vel forestille sig at de vil begynde at poste og reposte
materiale fra disse firmaer, samt mange andre.

> That should really be no surprise. The quality of the TDC news swerver
has been in the toilet for nearly a year, and not so good for some time
before that. People have gotten fed up with this miserable performance and
no sign of improvement and moved elsewhere. WOL or whoever they wannabe
today is the only provider who has had a reputation for a good news service
during this time and is a logical target for binariez freaks.

Jeg synes også at CyberCity følger godt med, der er dog en aggressiv grænse
på max. antal tråde, og en størrelsesbegrænsning på binær, men til gengæld
kører newsserveren nogenlunde stabilt.

--
Anders Ebbesen
Arbejder for CyberCity, repræsenterer mig selv.

---

---

"Anders Ebbesen" <anders@ebbesen.org> writes:

>Jeg tror nok at ALS og Suze Randall primært har gået efter amerikanske
>brugere, det vil være alt for besværligt for dem at sagsøge f.eks. en
>dansker. Efterhånden som flere folk får båndbredden rundt omkring i verden,
>kan man meget vel forestille sig at de vil begynde at poste og reposte
>materiale fra disse firmaer, samt mange andre.

Det er måske rigtigt nok. Men film- og musikbranchen er jo en anden
sag. De har jo kontorer (og advokater) over praktisk talt hele
verden.

Mvh.
   Klaus.

---

---

"'anders@ebbesen.org'" <anders@ebbesen.org> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag:9erfrj$91d$1@news.cybercity.dk...

> Jeg tror nok at ALS og Suze Randall primært har gået efter amerikanske
> brugere

The reason their actions were so successful was that they went all-out after selected posters, hitting them with serious penalties, leaving the clear message that they'd do the same to anyone else. Most people posting copyright violations are not courageous defenders of liberty, and thus this threat was enough to silence the newsgroups because nobody dared to take the chance.

It also helped that the newsgroups made quiet were essentially dedicated to these particular copyright violations, instead of generic anti-hirsute grrrls, so the action as well as the absence of posts had a chilling effect, while it might be less obvious in a genre-based mp3 group where absence of Metallica wouldn't be the end of music swapping.

Of course, they also went after providers based on this reason, and a lot of them complied and deleted the groups rather than take risks under the untested DMCA. So a lot of the participants had nowhere to post. Supernews, however, challenged this, as a name is no more than a name, and I forget what happened there. Senility claims another victim.


> det vil være alt for besværligt for dem at sagsøge f.eks. en
> dansker.

While the DMCA is an Murkin phenomenon, copyright law is not, and as I'm assuming Danmark is a signatory to the Berne Convention (else I'd be hearing a lot more of danmark as an ideal land for siting a warez swerver), an infringing Dane is just as vulnerable.

I've already had to deal with complaints made by victims of copyright violations, though I don't know the details. I just work as janitor, spending an afternoon cleaning up after the hundreds of posts made. Much to my surprise, this did get talked about, and things that I don't know about happened to the poster.

Forcing a newsBASTARD to clean up after you is not a good way to endear said BASTARD to taking further risks in propagating then cleaning up future blatantly copyrighted material. Particularly when that takes time away from trying to be able to handle said material. That afternoon alone soured me to the flood of locally posted binaries, particularly as the complaint got to me just as I was about to go home. So I am biased.


> > That should really be no surprise. The quality of the TDC news swerver
> has been in the toilet for nearly a year, and not so good for some time
> before that. People have gotten fed up with this miserable performance and
> no sign of improvement and moved elsewhere. WOL or whoever they wannabe
> today is the only provider who has had a reputation for a good news service
> during this time and is a logical target for binariez freaks.

> Jeg synes også at CyberCity følger godt med, der er dog en aggressiv grænse
> på max. antal tråde

I don't understand this -- I'm translating this as ``thread'' as in followup, and I can't see any filtering that makes sense that could be based on that. Perhaps I'm just revealing myself as an illiterate dumbfuck american who won't invest in an ordbog after never getting much use out of the czech one. Jeg vil gerne have nogle sovetabletter.


> og en størrelsesbegrænsning på binær

This is what I meant, in that if there is a limit, then the only posts likely to pass would be single-parts, basically pictures. And TDC should have no problem with pr0n pictures. Any multipart posts would be split, formerly around half to one megabyte in size, and since news.tele.dk doesn't even try to carry the multipart groups, as these would be the target of most non-pr0nsuckers, if CyberBy carries no posts of this size, a binariez freak is likely to look elsewhere.

So apart from pictures, I'd interpret this to mean that CyberCity would be somewhat useless for binaries, and that any multiparts that get through intact actually hurt things by requiring a far larger number of posts of smaller size, when newsadmins advocate that as large multi-part parts as possible are best.

---

A Device Which is Oscillating wrote:
>
> "'anders@ebbesen.org'" <anders@ebbesen.org> schrieb in im
> Newsbeitrag:9erfrj$91d$1@news.cybercity.dk...
>
> > Jeg synes også at CyberCity følger godt med, der er dog en aggressiv grænse
> > på max. antal tråde
>
> I don't understand this -- I'm translating this as ``thread'' as in
> followup, and I can't see any filtering that makes sense that could
> be based on that. Perhaps I'm just revealing myself as an illiterate
> dumbfuck american who won't invest in an ordbog after never getting much
> use out of the czech one. Jeg vil gerne have nogle sovetabletter.
>

CC is limiting the amount of simultaneous connects a given IP can make
to the newsswerver, so Anders is talking threads as in 'processes' no as
in discussion threads.

> > og en størrelsesbegrænsning på binær
>
> This is what I meant, in that if there is a limit, then the only posts
> likely to pass would be single-parts, basically pictures. And TDC should
> have no problem with pr0n pictures. Any multipart posts would be split,
> formerly around half to one megabyte in size, and since news.tele.dk
> doesn't even try to carry the multipart groups, as these would be the
> target of most non-pr0nsuckers, if CyberBy carries no posts of this size,
> a binariez freak is likely to look elsewhere.
>

They throw away all binaries larger than approximately 128Kb, so you
can get some of your nekkid chicks, but the quality pics go byebye.


--
John Hinge - shayera / .sPOOn.
On usenet I represent no one but myself.
"Love hurts baby..." Spike, Buffy tVs
http://www.spoon-demogroup.net

---

It seems John Hinge wrote:
>> This is what I meant, in that if there is a limit, then the only posts
>> likely to pass would be single-parts, basically pictures. And TDC should
>> have no problem with pr0n pictures. Any multipart posts would be split,
>> formerly around half to one megabyte in size, and since news.tele.dk
>> doesn't even try to carry the multipart groups, as these would be the
>> target of most non-pr0nsuckers, if CyberBy carries no posts of this size,
>> a binariez freak is likely to look elsewhere.
>>
>
>They throw away all binaries larger than approximately 128Kb, so you
>can get some of your nekkid chicks, but the quality pics go byebye.

Er den grænse ikke for længst død og borte?

--
Simon Skals <spam@gid.dk>
"Never attribute to competence what can adequately be explained by luck."

---

"Simon Skals" <spam@gid.dk> wrote in message
news:slrn9h6vm6.55o.spam@www.gid.dk...
> It seems John Hinge wrote:
> >
> >They throw away all binaries larger than approximately 128Kb, so you
> >can get some of your nekkid chicks, but the quality pics go byebye.
>
> Er den grænse ikke for længst død og borte?

Nope, ser dog ud til at være blevet hævet til cirka 256Kb for alt grupperne,
i dk er der ingen grænse (og det har der vist heller aldrig været).

--
Anders Ebbesen
Web Developer
http://www.ebbesen.org | anders@ebbesen.org

---

Anders Ebbesen wrote:
>
> "Simon Skals" <spam@gid.dk> wrote in message
> news:slrn9h6vm6.55o.spam@www.gid.dk...
> > Er den grænse ikke for længst død og borte?
>
> Nope, ser dog ud til at være blevet hævet til cirka 256Kb for alt grupperne,
> i dk er der ingen grænse (og det har der vist heller aldrig været).
>

nåå, så er det derfor jeg får lidt flere.. high-quality ting..


--
John Hinge - shayera / .sPOOn.
On usenet I represent no one but myself.
"Love hurts baby..." Spike, Buffy tVs
http://www.spoon-demogroup.net

---

---

"Henrik Aarfeldt" <rivmin@rivmin.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:gJrP6.415$832.239845571@news.mobilixnet.dk...
> "Andreas Falck" <Andreas.Falck@sda-net.dk> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:9ekun5$mp2$1@egon.worldonline.dk...

> > Henrik, kan du ikke fortælle os lidt om hvad der sker, kan
> > vi ikke få en udmelding fra Mobilix (Orange)? Der sker jo
> > tilsyneladende kun noget der du oplader din røst bag
> > lukkede døre )
>
> Hej.
>
> Jeg sidder ikke i news-service-afdelingen...men indlæg som disse
> sender jeg til den ansvarlige gruppe + lægger dem på vores
> intranet....i håb om at der vil blive gjort noget ved det.

Mine linier som du ovenfor citerede skulle rent faktisk være en ros
til dig, for det er altså først efter at du har meldt tilbage i
organisationen at der er begyndt at ske noget.

Og ja, feedet er da blevet bedre, omend ikke helt godt endnu. Men
retention er, som du selv antyder, direkte skodagtig.

Håber snart, meget snart, ultra meget snart, at disse sidste problemer
også bliver løst.

Læg også venligst ud på jeres intranet, at vi ville blive
himmelhenrykte, jublende glade, ja måske endda ligefrem i tidlig
julehumør, såfremt de rette folk ville tage bladet fra munden og melde
ud i de interne grupper, så vi stakkels orange brugere havde bare en
lille bitte chance for at tro at vi bliver bare en lille bitte smule
informeret fra rette instans om der jo nok sker et bette nøk i ny og
næ i den rigtige retning til problemets endelige udryddelse!

Med venlig hilsen Andreas Falck - ICQ 108 480 093
--
"Det evige Evangelium" - http://www.sda-net.dk/
Hvordan blive retfærdig: - http://hjem.get2net.dk/AFA1441/side-023.htm
Hvem er det sande Israel? - Hvad er sand tungetale? -
Hvem er Antikrist? - og mange andre artikler!