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Uenigheder i USAs udenrigspolitik
Fra : Knud Larsen


Dato : 05-12-05 13:00

Læs en meget lang artikel på The Newyorker, og se om "I" ikke kan lære lidt
om, hvad de går og tænker på i administrationen, og udenfor, - det ER ikke
bare Anders And-simpelt, som mange åbenbart tror:

www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/051031fa_fact2



En bid:



Yet the two do not see each other much anymore. According to friends of
Scowcroft, Rice has asked him to call her to set up a dinner, but he has
not, apparently, pursued the invitation. The last time the two had dinner,
nearly two years ago, it ended unhappily, Scowcroft acknowledged. "We were
having dinner just when Sharon said he was going to pull out of Gaza," at
the end of 2003. "She said, 'At least there's some good news,' and I said,
'That's terrible news.' She said, 'What do you mean?' And I said that for
Sharon this is not the first move, this is the last move. He's getting out
of Gaza because he can't sustain eight thousand settlers with half his Army
protecting them. Then, when he's out, he will have an Israel that he can
control and a Palestinian state atomized enough that it can't be a problem."
Scowcroft added, "We had a terrible fight on that."

They also argued about Iraq. "She says we're going to democratize Iraq, and
I said, 'Condi, you're not going to democratize Iraq,' and she said, 'You
know, you're just stuck in the old days,' and she comes back to this thing
that we've tolerated an autocratic Middle East for fifty years and so on and
so forth," he said. Then a barely perceptible note of satisfaction entered
his voice, and he said, "But we've had fifty years of peace."




For most of the past hundred years, American foreign policy has oscillated
between two opposing impulses: to make the world more like America, or to
deal with it as it is. Those who object to what they call "interference" in
the affairs of others-today's realists-often cite the words of John Quincy
Adams, who in 1821 said that America stands with those who seek freedom and
independence, "but she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy."
By contrast, Woodrow Wilson, the unbounded moralist, said, in seeking a
declaration of war against Germany in 1917, that "the world must be made
safe for democracy." Wilson told Congress, "We are but one of the champions
of the rights of mankind. We shall be satisfied when those rights have been
made as secure as the faith and the freedom of nations can make them."

At different times, the isolationist impulse, which would have America
withdraw entirely from the affairs of the world, has been felt strongly in
Washington-for instance, in the America First movement before the Second
World War. Today, few in the Republican Party, or even among liberal
Democrats, believe that America has no military role to play in any
hemisphere other than its own.

The desire to undermine or overthrow brutal regimes-to transform them into
democracies-is irresistible for many Americans. The realists argue that
these global Wilsonians have an unacceptably high tolerance for the kind of
instability that the export of democracy can bring. "The United States . . .
must temper its missionary spirit with a concept of the national interest
and rely on its head as well as its heart in defining its duty to the
world," Henry Kissinger wrote in the third volume of his memoirs. By
contrast, the current President, in his second inaugural address, set for
America a breathtakingly large mission. "It is the policy of the United
States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and
institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending
tyranny in our world," Bush said.

For Brent Scowcroft, the rhetoric is not matched by reality. "I believe that
you cannot with one sweep of the hand or the mind cast off thousands of
years of history," he says.

.........

GW Bush er blevet uvenner med sin far, fordi han ikke ville tage afstand
fra, hvad hans nære ven Scowcroft sagde under interviewet.






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Zeki (05-12-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Zeki


Dato : 05-12-05 13:20

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:43942bb1$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...

> GW Bush er blevet uvenner med sin far, fordi han ikke ville tage afstand
> fra, hvad hans nære ven Scowcroft sagde under interviewet.

Naturligvis. Enten er man jo med Bush eller også er man med terroristerne.
Også selvom man har følgende nuancerede holdning:

"Scowcroft does not believe that the promotion of American-style democracy
abroad is a sufficiently good reason to use force. "I thought we ought to
make it our duty to help make the world friendlier for the growth of liberal
regimes," he said. "You encourage democracy over time, with assistance, and
aid, the traditional way. Not how the neocons do it."
The neoconservatives-the Republicans who argued most fervently for the
second Gulf war-believe in the export of democracy, by violence if that is
required, Scowcroft said. "How do the neocons bring democracy to Iraq? You
invade, you threaten and pressure, you evangelize." And now, Scowcroft said,
America is suffering from the consequences of that brand of revolutionary
utopianism. "This was said to be part of the war on terror, but Iraq feeds
terrorism," he said."

Mvh
Zeki





Knud Larsen (05-12-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Knud Larsen


Dato : 05-12-05 15:53


"Zeki" <zeki@nope.dk> wrote in message
news:3gWkf.2033$Cl2.39215@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:43942bb1$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>
>> GW Bush er blevet uvenner med sin far, fordi han ikke ville tage afstand
>> fra, hvad hans nære ven Scowcroft sagde under interviewet.
>
> Naturligvis. Enten er man jo med Bush eller også er man med terroristerne.
> Også selvom man har følgende nuancerede holdning:
>
> "Scowcroft does not believe that the promotion of American-style democracy
> abroad is a sufficiently good reason to use force. "I thought we ought to
> make it our duty to help make the world friendlier for the growth of
> liberal regimes," he said. "You encourage democracy over time, with
> assistance, and aid, the traditional way. Not how the neocons do it."
> The neoconservatives-the Republicans who argued most fervently for the
> second Gulf war-believe in the export of democracy, by violence if that is
> required, Scowcroft said. "How do the neocons bring democracy to Iraq? You
> invade, you threaten and pressure, you evangelize." And now, Scowcroft
> said, America is suffering from the consequences of that brand of
> revolutionary utopianism. "This was said to be part of the war on terror,
> but Iraq feeds terrorism," he said."

Og det har manden jo fuldstændig ret i, - men han regnede også helt sikkert
med at Saddam havde WMD, - for lige at nævne *det*.

Og iøvrigt så ER det jo rigtigt, at disse neocons virkelig troede på, at de
kunne indføre demokrati på den måde, det var IKKE bare en fidus-historie for
at narre hele verden og stjæle olien. De narrede kun sig selv, som
ønsketænkere plejer at gøre, - og de VAR jo også alle, tidligere troende
venstreorienterede






Knud Larsen (05-12-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Knud Larsen


Dato : 05-12-05 15:58


"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43945463$0$67259$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>
> "Zeki" <zeki@nope.dk> wrote in message
> news:3gWkf.2033$Cl2.39215@news000.worldonline.dk...
>> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
>> news:43942bb1$0$67262$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>>
>>> GW Bush er blevet uvenner med sin far, fordi han ikke ville tage afstand
>>> fra, hvad hans nære ven Scowcroft sagde under interviewet.
>>
>> Naturligvis. Enten er man jo med Bush eller også er man med
>> terroristerne. Også selvom man har følgende nuancerede holdning:

Forresten er jo Saddam Hussein nu en ivrig tilhænger af demokratiet :



"... rejste Saddam sig til sidst fra sin stol og råbte.":

»Længe leve Irak! Længe leve den irakiske republik! Længe leve demokratiet!«






Zeki (05-12-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Zeki


Dato : 05-12-05 16:38

"Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:43945598$0$67258$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...

> »Længe leve Irak! Længe leve den irakiske republik! Længe leve
> demokratiet!«

"Shiite militias tied to Iran control the government

Shiite fundamentalist politicians now govern Basra and are using their
private armies to run the city. They have banned alcohol, forced more women
to veil and kidnapped and killed reporters.

Amjed Saad, a reporter for the local TV station, says Iran is turning Basra
into a mini-Islamic state under its influence. "We have 40 Islamic parties
just in Basra," he says. "Many are backed by Iran.""
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10285078/





Knud Larsen (05-12-2005)
Kommentar
Fra : Knud Larsen


Dato : 05-12-05 18:24


"Zeki" <zeki@nope.dk> wrote in message
news:89Zkf.2041$Cl2.39576@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Knud Larsen" <larsen_knud@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:43945598$0$67258$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk...
>
>> »Længe leve Irak! Længe leve den irakiske republik! Længe leve
>> demokratiet!«
>
> "Shiite militias tied to Iran control the government
>
> Shiite fundamentalist politicians now govern Basra and are using their
> private armies to run the city. They have banned alcohol, forced more
> women to veil and kidnapped and killed reporters.

Jamen, de er jo frihedskæmpere, - det er kun et spørgsmål om hvis frihed de
kæmper for.

>
> Amjed Saad, a reporter for the local TV station, says Iran is turning
> Basra into a mini-Islamic state under its influence. "We have 40 Islamic
> parties just in Basra," he says. "Many are backed by Iran.""
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10285078/

De har dog 40 forskellige partier, det er da bedre end ingenting.

Her er lidt fra den nyeste Egypt Today, om et folk som man hævder er det
ældste med en monoteistisk religion, - i Nordirak:

The aftermath of the Arabization programs is phenomenal in scope. Human
Rights Watch counted nearly 1 million displaced people living in the
semi-autonomous Kurdish region alone. The hundreds of thousands of tribesmen
who were ordered into the areas the displaced left now number in the
millions, few of whom have any interest in returning to the harsh life of a
desert nomad. Left unchecked, this situation has the possibility of
spreading from Iraq to the rest of the region.
The ayatollahs of Iran openly claim dominion over all followers of the Shi'a
sect and are already accused of supporting Shi'a Iraqi militias. And should
the situation degenerate into an all-out civil war, the Turks have plainly
stated that they would use any means necessary to keep an independent
Kurdish state from coming into being.

The Joint Claims Commission in Mosul has the daunting task of assessing the
mountains of land claims. Hindered by the continuing violence and funding
problems, their work proceeds at a slow pace. The importance of their
mission cannot be overstated: Their job is the peaceful resolution of
decades or even centuries of ethnic violence.

The number of people affected and the bitterness involved offer a very clear
warning to the Yezidi and the other peoples of northern Iraq: As bad as it
is now, and as bad as it has been, things can still get very much worse.

....

Looking around the nearby village of Jazeera, one has to wonder why anyone
would settle here. The surrounding landscape is barren to the point of
lunar. The new, nearly completed modern village school is three stories
tall, two stories more than any other building in town and the only
structure in Jazeera with indoor plumbing. Standing on the roof, the only
living things as far as the eye can see are people and a scattering of
livestock.

The answer to why someone would choose to live here is simple: They didn't.

Nej, de fik et lille venligt puf af Saddam H.

....

"I came from Al-Hyali," says Sirhan. "After they moved all the people, they
destroyed everything." The town Al-Hyali cannot be found on any map made
after the early 1970s, but since the fall of Saddam's regime, many people
have been returning to their ancestral lands. Sirhan, however, has no plans
to go back. "There is nothing to return to," he says simply. "We have lived
here for 35 years, this is our home now. People wouldn't talk of leaving if
we could find work here."



Fornuftig mand, tænk hvis palæstinenserne var lige så pragmatiske.















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