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Minority Report plot som en si *SPOILERS*
Fra : Per Kristensen


Dato : 12-08-02 09:59

Ja den har været oppe før, men det er utroligt så mange store plothuller der
er i denne film. Selvom jeg stadig syntes det er en fed film, så vil jeg
lige trække et par af de største og sjoveste frem:

1. I've been thinking about this alot, and I've realized that the whole idea
of comitting a murder to look like an "echo" after another one wouldn't
work. If you think about it, that system would work to cover up the visual
part of the premonition, but how would it stop a ball from being created?
Burgess definitely planned to kill Anne Lively, so it should have been a
brown ball. If you compare his plan to kill Lively to any other murder, than
there's really no difference except that he hired someone else to murder her
too. Early on in the film, after Anderton throws the ball across the table
and Witwer catches it, he mentions that the precogs don't see what you
intend to do, only what you do. So if the guys was hired to pretend to kill
Lively, the brown ball would have still said Lamar Burgess, the real killer.
If the fall guy thought that he was going to kill her, then there would have
been two brown balls, one for Lamar and one for him, or one brown ball for
the both of them. No matter how you slice it, there should have been a ball.
Some people think that the techs would have dismissed it as an echo before
it ever got to the ball stage, but there must be a system to identify echoes
beyond a tech saying "yeah, that looks the same". The names are clearly
innate to the vision, so both visions, however similar they looked would
have different murderers attached to them.


2. The police were able to track down John during most of the movie because
his eyes were constantly scanned and his location sent to the cops, yet when
he uses one of his eyes on the scanner to open the door tn the basement of
the pre-crime department, no alarms go off! They were able to track him down
all the way to an old delapidating building but not the police station
itself?

3. In the beginning, when Anderton arrests the jealous husband, he notes
that he is being arrested on April 22 - that day - for the future murder of
his wife and her lover. Later, while Anderton is jogging, we see billboards
advocating a "Yes" vote on pre-crime on April 22. The next day, Anderton's
boss Lamar notes that the vote is in a week, which would make it April 15,
making the day that the jealous husband was arrested April 14, not April 22.

4. After the fight scene in the automobile plant where Anderton is built
into a car on the assembly line, we see him sit up after the car is done
being made. It's obvious that we are looking at the tail-end of the
production process, because we see the car he is in being painted as it
rolls along. When the car is finished, Anderton sits up in the driver's seat
and drives the car out an exit that is apparently right in front of him. If
this is the end of a giant assembly line, where do the rest of the cars go?
Does someone drive all of them off of the line as well?

5. This really confuses me. The guy who got caught/framed for the murder of
the pre-cog's mother was known as "John Doe", because they didn't know his
real name. Then what was the name on his ball?

6. The movie makes a big deal about "pre-crime" going national. Are we to
believe that the same three pre-cogs are now going to cover the entire
nation? (har jeg selv omtalt tidligere)

7. After the first attempted murder of Anne Lively the police would surely
have taken her away to make a statement. Not only do they not do this, but
she is immediately left alone to be murdered, and somehow the police see
nothing odd in her instant vanishing, and they treat it as just another
disappearance.

8. 1) The futures that are projected ONLY come from timelines where the
visions have not had an effect (because you don't see police in the murder
visions crashing through windows). 2) John and Agatha (the Precog girl)
appear in the vision together. 3) If John and Agatha appear in the vision,
then the future that was projected comes from a timeline affected by the
visions. 4) The future that was projected CANNOT come from a timeline
affected by the visions. 5) Therefore, John and Agatha appearing in the
vision is incorrect.

9. If Burgess was planning to kill Anne Lively through that whole elaborate
system, he would have had to think about this for a long time. Wouldn't the
precogs have seen it BEFORE he hired someone else to kill her? He had to
think of killing her himself before anyone else did...

10. The time period of the movie is 2054. There is an election day (April
22nd) that is on a billboard and then announced as a Tuesday. However, April
22nd, 2054 is actually on a Wednesday.

11. In the scene where they give a tour to school children they saw
pre-crime has been running smoothly for 9 years. Anderton's son has been
missing for 6 years why then when John was talking to Burgess did he say if
the company would have been around 6 months earlier his son's death would
have never happened, when the company had been around 3 years earlier?

12. Why at the end of the film do the pre-cogs see the future murder of
Anderton by Von Sydow's character, and thereby enable the cops to appear at
the last minute to save him, when it is in fact his own suicide? Max Von
Sydow knew that the murder would be detected, but clearly wanted to do it
anyway - no information is given to him to change his mind that he didn't
already know, and the cops turn up after the shot is fired, so why was it
ever seen as a murder? Or is this just intended as final proof that the
system doesn't work after all?



 
 
Simon Pedersen (12-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Simon Pedersen


Dato : 12-08-02 11:21


"Per Kristensen" <pzk@crayon.dk> wrote in message
news:3d5778c4$0$88402$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk...
> Ja den har været oppe før, men det er utroligt så mange store plothuller
der
> er i denne film. Selvom jeg stadig syntes det er en fed film, så vil jeg
> lige trække et par af de største og sjoveste frem:
>
> 5. This really confuses me. The guy who got caught/framed for the murder
of
> the pre-cog's mother was known as "John Doe", because they didn't know his
> real name. Then what was the name on his ball?

Så vidt jeg forstår det, så er det fordi mordet sker før Precrime afdelingen
er lavet, Det er først derefter systemet bliver sat op. Derved er der ikke
lavet noget kulge-system endnu.

> 6. The movie makes a big deal about "pre-crime" going national. Are we to
> believe that the same three pre-cogs are now going to cover the entire
> nation? (har jeg selv omtalt tidligere)

Hvis system blev valgt til at skulle være over hele landet, ville regeringen
have retten til at "fremstille" flere "pre-cogs". De første 3 skete ved et
tilfælde, og det vil åbenbart være uetisk at lave nogle flere, uden valg.

> 10. The time period of the movie is 2054. There is an election day (April
> 22nd) that is on a billboard and then announced as a Tuesday. However,
April
> 22nd, 2054 is actually on a Wednesday.

Detalje...who cares...

> 12. Why at the end of the film do the pre-cogs see the future murder of
> Anderton by Von Sydow's character, and thereby enable the cops to appear
at
> the last minute to save him, when it is in fact his own suicide? Max Von
> Sydow knew that the murder would be detected, but clearly wanted to do it
> anyway - no information is given to him to change his mind that he didn't
> already know, and the cops turn up after the shot is fired, so why was it
> ever seen as a murder? Or is this just intended as final proof that the
> system doesn't work after all?

Det er den centrale i filmen. Faktisk er det det spørgsmål man skal stille
sig selv. Jeg mener det er bevis på at man selv er herre over sin egen
fremtid.

Mvh
Simon



Peter B. Juul (12-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Peter B. Juul


Dato : 12-08-02 11:58

"Per Kristensen" <pzk@crayon.dk> writes:

> 1. I've been thinking about this alot, and I've realized that the whole idea
> of comitting a murder to look like an "echo" after another one wouldn't
> work. If you think about it, that system would work to cover up the visual
> part of the premonition, but how would it stop a ball from being created?

Easy. Boldene kommer først i løbet af "transmissionen", når de
relevante fakta dukker op. (Som vi ser i Andertons tilfælde, hvor hans
bold først dukker op ret sent.)

Hvis teknikeren opfatter, at det er et ekko, så afbryder han
behandlingen af sagen. Hvis det var et ekko ville der komme et ekstra
sæt bolde med de relevante navne og det ville der ikek være nogen
grund til. Altså: sagsbehandlingen afbrydes tidligt.

> 2. The police were able to track down John during most of the movie because
> his eyes were constantly scanned and his location sent to the cops, yet when
> he uses one of his eyes on the scanner to open the door tn the basement of
> the pre-crime department, no alarms go off! They were able to track him down
> all the way to an old delapidating building but not the police station
> itself?

Som skrevet et andet sted: Den kælderindgang virker som en "bagdør" på
mere end en måde. Komplekse EDB-systemer har ofte den slags. Jeg kan
huske, at jeg opfattede den som sådan, selv om det ikke fastlægges, at
det er tilfældet. Det, der kan undre, er så hvorfor Anderton er kodet
ind i denne bagdør.

> 3. In the beginning, when Anderton arrests the jealous husband, he notes
> that he is being arrested on April 22 - that day - for the future murder of
> his wife and her lover. Later, while Anderton is jogging, we see billboards
> advocating a "Yes" vote on pre-crime on April 22. The next day, Anderton's
> boss Lamar notes that the vote is in a week, which would make it April 15,
> making the day that the jealous husband was arrested April 14, not April 22.

Det er en kontinuitetsfejl. At kalde det et plothul er
sensationsjageri (ligesom det ikke er et plothul, at sagsnummeret 1008
står på skærmen, mens Anderton arbejder på sag 1009)

> 4. After the fight scene in the automobile plant where Anderton is built
> into a car on the assembly line, we see him sit up after the car is done
> being made. It's obvious that we are looking at the tail-end of the
> production process, because we see the car he is in being painted as it
> rolls along. When the car is finished, Anderton sits up in the driver's seat
> and drives the car out an exit that is apparently right in front of him. If
> this is the end of a giant assembly line, where do the rest of the cars go?
> Does someone drive all of them off of the line as well?

De har naturligvis allesammen et elektronisk navigationssystem, der
kører dem ud af døren og hen på lageret. Man må gerne tænke selv.

> 5. This really confuses me. The guy who got caught/framed for the murder of
> the pre-cog's mother was known as "John Doe", because they didn't know his
> real name. Then what was the name on his ball?

Heh. Ja, den er faktisk god.

> 6. The movie makes a big deal about "pre-crime" going national. Are we to
> believe that the same three pre-cogs are now going to cover the entire
> nation? (har jeg selv omtalt tidligere)

Måske. Vi kender ikke teknologien i detaljer, så måske er det
muligt. Det kan også være, at man vil klone dem. Igen: Det er for
pokker ikke alting, der behøver at blive forklaret, for at man kan
acceptere det.

Jeg mener: "In Star Wars the Millenium Falcon flies at speeds _above_
the speed of light. That is impossible. How do they do that?"

Nej vel?

> 7. After the first attempted murder of Anne Lively the police would surely
> have taken her away to make a statement. Not only do they not do this, but
> she is immediately left alone to be murdered, and somehow the police see
> nothing odd in her instant vanishing, and they treat it as just another
> disappearance.

Hun var narkoman. Du ville blive chokeret over hvor lidt man faktisk
gør for at finde ud af hvad der er sket med forsvundne narkomaner.

> 8. 1) The futures that are projected ONLY come from timelines where the
> visions have not had an effect (because you don't see police in the murder
> visions crashing through windows). 2) John and Agatha (the Precog girl)
> appear in the vision together. 3) If John and Agatha appear in the vision,
> then the future that was projected comes from a timeline affected by the
> visions. 4) The future that was projected CANNOT come from a timeline
> affected by the visions. 5) Therefore, John and Agatha appearing in the
> vision is incorrect.

Igen: Logik og precog-plots er som olie og vand. De er plot devices, ganske
som tidsrejser er det, og man kan ikke forvente alt for megen
konsistens i måden de virker på. Man kan sagtens lave forklaringer på,
hvorfor det ovenstående kan ske i dette tilfælde, men det er
meningsløst.

> 9. If Burgess was planning to kill Anne Lively through that whole elaborate
> system, he would have had to think about this for a long time. Wouldn't the
> precogs have seen it BEFORE he hired someone else to kill her? He had to
> think of killing her himself before anyone else did...

Se 8.

> 10. The time period of the movie is 2054. There is an election day (April
> 22nd) that is on a billboard and then announced as a Tuesday. However, April
> 22nd, 2054 is actually on a Wednesday.

Vi skifter kalender i 2016. Se 3.

> 11. In the scene where they give a tour to school children they saw
> pre-crime has been running smoothly for 9 years. Anderton's son has been
> missing for 6 years why then when John was talking to Burgess did he say if
> the company would have been around 6 months earlier his son's death would
> have never happened, when the company had been around 3 years earlier?

Fordi alt hvad de fortalte børnene var løgn? "The precogs have their
own rooms, TVs and gyms, bla bla bla"

> 12. Why at the end of the film do the pre-cogs see the future murder of
> Anderton by Von Sydow's character, and thereby enable the cops to appear at
> the last minute to save him, when it is in fact his own suicide? Max Von
> Sydow knew that the murder would be detected, but clearly wanted to do it
> anyway - no information is given to him to change his mind that he didn't
> already know, and the cops turn up after the shot is fired, so why was it
> ever seen as a murder? Or is this just intended as final proof that the
> system doesn't work after all?

Mordet på Anderton i visionen var et affektmord.

--
Peter B. Juul, o.-.o "Plej omgang med vise, så bliver du vís,
The RockBear. ((^)) den, der omgås tåber, går det ilde."
I speak only 0}._.{0 Ordsprogenes bog 13,20
for myself. O/ \O

Herold (12-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Herold


Dato : 12-08-02 12:20


> 1. I've been thinking about this alot, and I've realized that the whole
idea
> of comitting a murder to look like an "echo" after another one wouldn't
> work. If you think about it, that system would work to cover up the visual
> part of the premonition, but how would it stop a ball from being created?
> Burgess definitely planned to kill Anne Lively, so it should have been a
> brown ball. If you compare his plan to kill Lively to any other murder,
than
> there's really no difference except that he hired someone else to murder
her
> too. Early on in the film, after Anderton throws the ball across the table
> and Witwer catches it, he mentions that the precogs don't see what you
> intend to do, only what you do. So if the guys was hired to pretend to
kill
> Lively, the brown ball would have still said Lamar Burgess, the real
killer.
> If the fall guy thought that he was going to kill her, then there would
have
> been two brown balls, one for Lamar and one for him, or one brown ball for
> the both of them. No matter how you slice it, there should have been a
ball.
> Some people think that the techs would have dismissed it as an echo before
> it ever got to the ball stage, but there must be a system to identify
echoes
> beyond a tech saying "yeah, that looks the same". The names are clearly
> innate to the vision, so both visions, however similar they looked would
> have different murderers attached to them.

Som tidligere beskrevet så er det i en tidlig version af PreCrime-fasen.
Desuden så ser man også at dem der styrer det (eller ihvertfald de fleste af
dem) selv tager ud til gerningsstedet. Jeg kan forestille mig at Lamar har
haft indflydelse nok til at holde kontoret tomt, og igen: Der er nok ikke
noget kuglesystem på det tidspunkt.

> 2. The police were able to track down John during most of the movie
because
> his eyes were constantly scanned and his location sent to the cops, yet
when
> he uses one of his eyes on the scanner to open the door tn the basement of
> the pre-crime department, no alarms go off! They were able to track him
down
> all the way to an old delapidating building but not the police station
> itself?

De ledte aktivt efter ham på det tidspunkt. Der gik jo ingen alarmer igang
da han bevægede sig rundt i byen. Jeg kan også godt forestille mig at det
interne system er isoleret fra resten af netværket for at forhindre indbrud
via hacking.


> 5. This really confuses me. The guy who got caught/framed for the murder
of
> the pre-cog's mother was known as "John Doe", because they didn't know his
> real name. Then what was the name on his ball?

No balls.

> 6. The movie makes a big deal about "pre-crime" going national. Are we to
> believe that the same three pre-cogs are now going to cover the entire
> nation? (har jeg selv omtalt tidligere)

Nej, filmen gjorde det IMO rimeligt klart at de kun kunne dække et relativt
lille område (en by f.eks.)

> 7. After the first attempted murder of Anne Lively the police would surely
> have taken her away to make a statement. Not only do they not do this, but
> she is immediately left alone to be murdered, and somehow the police see
> nothing odd in her instant vanishing, and they treat it as just another
> disappearance.

Lamar trækker hende væk. Han har autoritet.

> 12. Why at the end of the film do the pre-cogs see the future murder of
> Anderton by Von Sydow's character, and thereby enable the cops to appear
at
> the last minute to save him, when it is in fact his own suicide? Max Von
> Sydow knew that the murder would be detected, but clearly wanted to do it
> anyway - no information is given to him to change his mind that he didn't
> already know, and the cops turn up after the shot is fired, so why was it
> ever seen as a murder? Or is this just intended as final proof that the
> system doesn't work after all?

Det var ikke planlagt... Kald det evt. en crime of passion. Lamar havde
planlagt at skyde Anderson og ikke sig selv.



Peter Bjerre Rosa (12-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Peter Bjerre Rosa


Dato : 12-08-02 12:37

Herold skrev:

> Nej, filmen gjorde det IMO rimeligt klart at de kun kunne dække et
> relativt lille område (en by f.eks.)


Så synes jeg stadig, min indvending er relevant. Hvorfor smuttede Lamar
ikke uden for byen og nakkede hende?

--
Mvh. Peter
"Being a robot's great, but we don't have emotions, and sometimes that
makes me very sad."


Herold (12-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Herold


Dato : 12-08-02 13:16


> Så synes jeg stadig, min indvending er relevant. Hvorfor smuttede Lamar
> ikke uden for byen og nakkede hende?

Ja, den var værre.

Måske var hun ikke lige sådan at få udenfor byen? (iøvrigt virker det som om
at det faktisk _er_ udenfor byen.



Magnus Dreyer (12-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Magnus Dreyer


Dato : 12-08-02 23:26

"Herold" <jacob@boomtown.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:3d57a703$0$27843$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk...
>
> > Så synes jeg stadig, min indvending er relevant. Hvorfor smuttede Lamar
> > ikke uden for byen og nakkede hende?
>
> Ja, den var værre.
>
> Måske var hun ikke lige sådan at få udenfor byen? (iøvrigt virker det som
om
> at det faktisk _er_ udenfor byen.
>
Måske fordi alle pre-coqs også opfanger mord, der bliver planlagt i deres
nærhed. Vi ser jo tilsidst dem i en hytte på Lars Tyndskids marker.

magnus



Peter Bjerre Rosa (13-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Peter Bjerre Rosa


Dato : 13-08-02 00:38

Magnus Dreyer skrev:

> Måske fordi alle pre-coqs også opfanger mord, der bliver planlagt i
> deres nærhed. Vi ser jo tilsidst dem i en hytte på Lars Tyndskids
> marker.

Lamar må kende alt til oraklernes dækning. Med en stribe cola kunne han
let have lokket Mama Oracle med i et privatfly og fløjet til Australien,
hvor han i fred og ro kunne have basket hende.

--
Mvh. Peter
"Dear MacGyver, enclosed is a rubber band, a paper clip and a drinking
straw, please save my dog."


Herold (13-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Herold


Dato : 13-08-02 07:12



> Lamar må kende alt til oraklernes dækning. Med en stribe cola kunne han
> let have lokket Mama Oracle med i et privatfly og fløjet til Australien,
> hvor han i fred og ro kunne have basket hende.

Hun var jo blevet stoffri :) Og hvor meget grund ville hun have til at stole
på ham, der har stjålet hendes datter?



Peter B. Juul (13-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Peter B. Juul


Dato : 13-08-02 10:10

"Peter Bjerre Rosa" <peter@filmsvar.dk> writes:

> Lamar må kende alt til oraklernes dækning. Med en stribe cola kunne han
> let have lokket Mama Oracle med i et privatfly og fløjet til Australien,
> hvor han i fred og ro kunne have basket hende.

I oraklernes område foregår mord"efter"forskning vha. oraklerne.

Udenfor oraklernes område foregår det på gammeldags vis.

Hvis Lamar begår mordet som "ekko-mord" indenfor oraklernes område, så
bliver han ikke opdaget, men begår han det udenfor, løber han præcis
den samme risiko som du og jeg gør i dag.

--
Peter B. Juul, o.-.o "Baaad movie. Bad, bad movie. Skipped video and went
The RockBear. ((^)) straight to slides."
I speak only 0}._.{0 - Dino Tripodis on his first movie.
for myself. O/ \O

Lars Balker Rasmusse~ (12-08-2002)
Kommentar
Fra : Lars Balker Rasmusse~


Dato : 12-08-02 12:30

"Per Kristensen" <pzk@crayon.dk> writes:
> Ja den har været oppe før, men det er utroligt så mange store plothuller der
> er i denne film. Selvom jeg stadig syntes det er en fed film, så vil jeg
> lige trække et par af de største og sjoveste frem:
[...]
> 6. The movie makes a big deal about "pre-crime" going national. Are we to
> believe that the same three pre-cogs are now going to cover the entire
> nation? (har jeg selv omtalt tidligere)

Hvis du ikke selv har skrevet det på engelsk er det god skik at give en
kildeangivelse.
--
Lars Balker Rasmussen "Special is bad."

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